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Dialogue
Poch 10/19: If God created everything including space and time, where was God located before he created space, and when was it before he created time?
Poch 10/19: If God had to create light, why did he create darkness in the first place?
Poch 10/19: How could Adam and Eve be guilty of the Original Sin since there was, before everything else, the Original Creator?
Poch 10/19: If prayers work how come we have to build more hospitals for the sick and more insane asylums for our politicians in the government?
Poch 10/19: If sin is defined as the willful omission against the law of God does it not follow that we should keep everyone away from religion so as not to commit sin?
Poch 10/19: If we were gifted with a free will, and God does not interfere with us, what's the purpose of daily prayers asking God to lead us not into temptation via divine intervention?
Poch 10/19: How spiritually healthy is it that the only way we can make God happy up there is not to live under freedom and democracy, but to live in misery and poverty with the blessings of a theocracy down here?
Poch 10/19: If God so love the world, why does he allow the devil to make the faithful believers of one religion hate the faithful believers of another religion? Or even allow the faithful believers of the same religion hate each other?
Poch 10/19: Theologians say that only God can make a tree. How come they knew nothing about the nature of trees and its environmental relationship to human survival on this planet?
Poch 10/19: How can God listen to the prayers of the theologians when God does not listen to Mary, His own Mother, daily praying for us sinners ever multiplying in great numbers, especially in the Philippines, the only Christian country in Asia?
Poch 10/19: Theologians assure us that God loves the Filipino. If this were true, how come in God's name, we are heartless to each other as a people. Again, theologians assure us that God loves the Philippines. If this were true, how come we are mindless of each other as a nation?
Poch 10/19: If the theologians were honest investigators of the truth, they should have already admitted that Christianity thrives on guilt. Guilt, not love, is the fundamental emotion that Christianity seeks to induce and this is symptomatic of a viciousness in Christianity that few people care to acknowledge. For all its alleged concern for the "poor in spirit," Christianity does its best to perpetuate social, political, moral, and spiritual poverty.
Notes

Tasks

B1_Think of a reply to 10/26 someday {{Tasks:6}} (2003.10.30)

Dialogue

Poch CT Suzara ([email protected])Poch 10/26, Sacha 10/22, Poch 10/29

Poch 10/19: If God created everything including space and time, where was God located before he created space, and when was it before he created time?

Sacha 10/22: As a computer programmer, I create everything within my program, but I am outside the limits of my program, and the program cannot conceive of me. Am I not of a different order?

Poch 10/26: YES, YOU ARE NOT ALL KNOWING nor ALL POWERFUL, ETC. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU CREATED A PROGRAM CALLED THE UNIVERSE??

Poch 10/19: If God had to create light, why did he create darkness in the first place?

Sacha 10/22: Why not? Darkness, too, has its place in the world.

Poch 10/26: ARE YOU NOT AWARE OF PHILOSOPHY, THE MOTHER OF SCIENCE, THE TASK OF WHICH IS TO BRING MORE LIGHT AND BEAUTY INTO THIS WORLD OF DARKNESS??

Sacha draft:

Poch 10/19: How could Adam and Eve be guilty of the Original Sin since there was, before everything else, the Original Creator?

Sacha 10/22: How can a parent say when a child has made a mistake if the child is only a product of his or her environment and upbringing?

Poch 10/26: WELL, ADAM AND EVE TOO WERE A PRODUCT also OF GOD’S ENVIROMENT AND UPBRINGING??

Poch 10/19: If prayers work how come we have to build more hospitals for the sick and more insane asylums for our politicians in the government?

Sacha 10/22: If I pray for someone to give me lots of money and he does not do it, would it have been a negation of his free will or something given to me undeservedly had God 'forced' him to do it?

Poch 10/26: WHAT NONSENSE ARE YOU REFERRING TO? WHEN I PRAYED YEARS AGO, I ASK GOD TO MAKE NOT DISEASES, BUT HEALTH CONTAGIOUS. I NEVER GOT A REPLY AS I SEE KILLER DISEASES EVER MORE CONTAGIOUS.

Poch 10/19: If sin is defined as the willful omission against the law of God does it not follow that we should keep everyone away from religion so as not to commit sin?

Sacha 10/22: Should we not help children learn what is good and what should not be done in order to help them grow as human beings in the company of others? Or should we let children wander, lawless and unchecked, letting them be ruled by their most selfish emotions while not helping them learn the discipline they need to improve?

Poch 10/26: WHAT RIGHT HAVE ANYONE TO RECRUIT CHILDREN INTO CATHOLICISM IF YOU ARE A CATHOLIC OR RECRUIT CHILDREN INTO ISLAM IF YOU ARE A MUSLIM? WHY NOT EXPOSED CHILDREN TO ALL RELIGIONS AND LET THEM CHOOSE THE RELIGION THAT THEY LIKE TO EMBRACE AND BELIEVE?

Poch 10/19: If we were gifted with a free will, and God does not interfere with us, what's the purpose of daily prayers asking God to lead us not into temptation via divine intervention?

Sacha 10/22: Are we not weak, and do we not find strength by admitting that we are weak and easily tempted? I know many who spend too much, unconscious of their limits; I know many who, no matter how little they have, strive to spend it wisely despite the little temptations they encounter along the way. In this manner, even the poorest scrape and save to give their children an education. Saying no to the urges and small luxuries - that takes strength and resolve.

Poch 10/26: HAVE YOU SELF-RESPECT AND DIGNITY? WHO TOLD YOU THAT YOU ARE WEAK AND THAT YOU SHOULD REMAIN WEAK FROM INFANCY TO SENILITY? Don’t YOU THINK IT’S TIME TO STAND UP AND LOOK AT THE WORLD IN ITS FACE; ITS GOOD FACTS AND BAD FACTS. ITS BEAUTIES AND ITS UGLINESS AND CONQUER THE WORLD NOT WITH FEAR AND IGNORANCE BUT WITH SCIENCE AND INTELLIGENCE?

Poch 10/19: How spiritually healthy is it that the only way we can make God happy up there is not to live under freedom and democracy, but to live in misery and poverty with the blessings of a theocracy down here?

Sacha 10/22: Would not a God that loves us want us to grow as people, and does adversity not make us stronger? If I had all the luxury in the world and all the freedom to do what I wanted when I wanted it, I should need even more resolve and strength in order to avoid trespassing on other people's freedom.

Poch 10/26: CAN’T YOU SEE THAT AS THE ONLY CHRISTIAN COUNTRY IN ASIA 99% of Filipinos ALREADY LOVE GOD? BUT HOW HAS THAT LOVE OF GOD HELPED THE FILIPINO GROW UP AS A PEOPLE AND AS A DECENT NATION WITH DECENT GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL WHO ALL LOVE, WORSHIP, AND ADORE GOD TOO??

Sacha 10/22: There is much suffering in this world, but suffering can also bring out beauty.

Poch 10/26: WHERE IS THAT BEAUTY TO BE FOUND HERE AND NOW IN HUMAN SUFFERING??? IS GOD SUCH A COLD-BLOODED PERFECTION LOST IN SELF-ADMIRATION ??

Poch 10/19: If God so love the world, why does he allow the devil to make the faithful believers of one religion hate the faithful believers of another religion? Or even allow the faithful believers of the same religion hate each other?

Sacha 10/22: Many things have been done in the name of God, but have not been for God. Many things have been done without the name of God and yet help people grow; who is to say that this is not for God as well?

Poch 10/26: WHY DO YOU RESCUE GOD AND GIVE EXCUSES FOR HIM AS IF HE PLAYS NO PART IN ANY OF MAN’S GREAT RELIGIONS??? ARE YOU ADMITTING THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST???

Sacha 10/22: Hate disfigures us. We must rise above it - as you do now, despite your distrust of what you call faith.

Poch 10/26: DON’T YOU THINK WE FILIPINOS ALREADY ENJOY DAMAGED MINDS AND BROKEN HEARTS DUE TO OUR FAITH IN DIVINITY SUPPORTED ALWAYS BY HUMAN STUPIDITY???

Poch 10/19: Theologians say that only God can make a tree. How come they knew nothing about the nature of trees and its environmental relationship to human survival on this planet?

Sacha 10/22: Scientifically, a tree is easy to explain. It is a collection of atoms, a group of cells... And yet who would have thought of trees if trees did not exist? Scientists would not need divine intervention to explain why seeds germinate or how plants evolved to be the way they are. But science is, at its core, an exploration of a world that already exists. Even our creations are recombinations of what already is. How can scientists not be filled with wonder?

Poch 10/26: DON’t YOU THINK THAT SUCH INFORMATION SHOULD HAVE BEEN INCLUDED IN THE BIBLE – THE BOOK WRITTEN BY INSPIRED AUTHORS OF GOD???

Sacha 10/22: Why something and not nothing? Why do we even exist? Are you not filled with wonder when you stand underneath the stars or when you see a flower?

Poch 10/26: AS CARL SAGAN WROTE: LIFE IS BUT A MOMENTARY GLIMPSE OF THE WONDER OF THIS ASTONISHING UNIVERSE, AND IT IS SAD TO SEE SO MANY DREAMING IT AWAY ON SPIRITUAL FANTASY.

Poch 10/19: How can God listen to the prayers of the theologians when God does not listen to Mary, His own Mother, daily praying for us sinners ever multiplying in great numbers, especially in the Philippines, the only Christian country in Asia?

Sacha 10/22: Who is to say that God does not listen?

Poch 10/26: WHY THEN MARY, THE MOTHER OF GOD, HAS NOT STOPPED PRAYING FOR US SINNERS NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH, AMEN??? BUT WHY SHOULD GOD LISTEN TO OUR PRAYERS WHEN GOD DOES NOT EVEN LISTEN TO THE PRAYERS OF HIS OWN MOTHER MARY???

Sacha 10/22: A solution from the clouds - deus ex machina - would not help us grow. I suspect that if God works in our world, God would work through us; not by forcing us to do things against our will, but encouraging us to make our will the improvement of people's lives.

Poch 10/26: I AM ASKING GOD TO HELP US DO THINGS AGAINST OUR WILL. ALL I AM ASKING IS FOR GOD TO START BEHAVING LIKE A GOD? AFTER ALL WHAT IS HE A GOD FOR??? GOD ALREADY HAS THE KINGDOM, THE POWER, AND THE GLORY. WE HUMANS HAVE NOTHING. WHAT MORE DOES GOD WANT FROM US POVERTY-STRICKEN AND MORALLY BANKRUPT PEOPLE DUE TO OUR FAITH IN HIS POWER??

Poch 10/19: Theologians assure us that God loves the Filipino. If this were true, how come in God's name, we are heartless to each other as a people. Again, theologians assure us that God loves the Philippines. If this were true, how come we are mindless of each other as a nation?

Sacha 10/22: Although parents love their children and teachers love their students, can they force their loved ones to get along, or should they guide their loved ones to become mindful of each other, knowing that it's ultimately a choice that the loved ones make - and that good deeds done because you're mindful of others are far better than good deeds compelled?

Poch 10/26: AND DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH THIS BY DESTROYING THE CURIOUS MINDS OF CHILDREN? DO YOU REALLY HAVE FAITH IN GOD WHO EXPECTS US OF US FILIPINOS TO BE ALWAYS MINDLESS AS A PEOPLE AND BE ALWAYS HEARTLESS OF EACH OTHER AS A NATION?

Poch 10/19: If the theologians were honest investigators of the truth, they should have already admitted that Christianity thrives on guilt. Guilt, not love, is the fundamental emotion that Christianity seeks to induce and this is symptomatic of a viciousness in Christianity that few people care to acknowledge. For all its alleged concern for the "poor in spirit," Christianity does its best to perpetuate social, political, moral, and spiritual poverty.

Sacha 10/22: I don't know about theologians, and I know that there have been some people who really play on guilt, fear, and superstition. I know, however, that there is something more to faith than guilt. There is wonder, and love, and grief, and hope. There is the stillness in your heart as you think of what is the best thing to do and the joy that you feel when you help someone else.

Poch 10/26: THE FACT IS THEOLOGY IS THE STUDY OF NOTHING. THEOLOGIANS KNOW NOTHING OF GOD, KNOW NOTHING OF LIFE OR DEATH, KNOW NOTHING OF HEAVEN OR HELL AND IF SUCH SILLY PLACES EXIST TO PLEASE GOD OR TO PLEASE THE STUPID DEVIL IN CAHOOTS ALWAYS WITH GOD.

Sacha 10/22: I don't aim to change your mind. I can offer you no arguments that will force you to believe in something. I have no proofs. I just speak of the small and simple things I know about, hoping that you'll see it's not all that bad. I don't need to convert you to any particular belief; whatever works for you is fine, and I know that you're also striving to make other people's lives better. <smile>

Poch 10/26: MY DEAR SACHA, WHEN GOD CREATED MAN, HE PUT A LIMIT TO HUMAN INTELLIGENCE. TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY, HOWEVER, GOD CREATED THE DEVIL TO PUT NO LIMIT TO HUMAN STUPIDITY.

Cross-reference: 2003.10.26:1

Notes

1. More questions for my questions

Categories: None -- Permalink, Comment form

I've been having a fairly strange discussion with someone named Poch CT Suzara ([email protected]). I never thought I'd be discussing theology - much less defending it - but I suppose Ateneo rubs off on one.

I'll just dump the conversation so far so that people can see what we've been up to. =) (I might have committed a few fallacies here and there; please point them out.)

You can search through this document for the following entries to view it chronologically or to see what's new:

  • Poch 10/26
  • Sacha 10/22
  • Poch 10/19

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