WEBVTT

NOTE How Ben got started with Emacs

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[Sacha]: I forgot to ask you how your last

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name is pronounced.

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[Ben]: Oh, Zanin.

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[Sacha]: This is Emacs chat number 25 and here I am with

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Ben Zanin.

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You have a math background and now you're in IT.

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Where did you encounter Emacs in the journey?

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[Ben]: So the reason I have a math

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background is that I wanted to get into

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programming language design and at the time so

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that led me over to lambda calculus and that kind

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of thing and at the time it was at the time I was

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getting into university in like 2005-2006

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It was impossible to get into the computer programs,

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but I could get into math.

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I figured that would move me in the direction that I wanted

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to go in, so I did.

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Got to third year, and then every professor

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who taught any of the courses I cared about

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all left the faculty at the same time.

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[Sacha]: Oh no!

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[Ben]: Yeah. Anyhow, that's a different story.

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But yeah, I got into Emacs because in the process

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of learning about Lambda Calculus, the Lisp

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weenies found me.

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And yeah, I spent a bunch of time learning about

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that.

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And it wasn't until like 10 years after I got

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into Common Lisp and Scheme that I actually got

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into Emacs at all.

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[Sacha]: That's interesting.

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Usually people, like, if they're doing Lispy

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things, they get into Emacs right away because

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Lisp.

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But okay, so 10 years after.

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[Sacha]: Okay, so this lambda stuff, not too scary,

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You're already well-used to parentheses at that point.

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[Ben]: Yes.

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But I guess it wasn't until about ten years ago,

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like around 2015 or so,

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that I started really getting into Emacs.

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I would still consider myself to be a beginner on that front.

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[Sacha]: Oh yeah? So what got you to get into it more?

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[Ben]: I found that I was looking for more structured

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data management processes.

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Basically, I was looking for personal information

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management.

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And I kept bouncing off Emacs because I wanted to

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get into those tasks, but Emacs was such a rich

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learning process that I kept getting sidetracked,

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so I kept bouncing off of it.

NOTE Ben got into Emacs because of twittering-mode

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But I have to admit that one of the things that

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originally actually got me into Emacs was

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twittering mode.

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Oh yeah?

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Because I was looking for a tool that would let

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me, we'll probably get into this later in the

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chat, but I was looking for a tool that would let

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me keep a larger window of context about the

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conversations that I've been in.

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The Twitter apps and the Twitter website

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implemented a really narrow window.

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I wanted to be able to search back a couple

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of weeks for stuff that I had seen or talked

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about previously.

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Twittering-mode gave me the ability to keep

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days or weeks of context in a single buffer

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that I could then immediately search.

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So I didn't actually get into Emacs as a text editor,

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I got into it as an application platform,

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and then gradually learned the rest of it.

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This is actually fantastic. So I kind of stuck around after that.

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[Sacha]: That is the first time I've heard of someone

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coming to Emacs because of Twitter.

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[Ben]: No, it's deeply embarrassing.

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[Sacha]: No, it's wonderful.

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I love that there's just so many

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reasons why people come and the fact that you

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could find something that would let you take

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those notes and see that context and reply to it,

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and even, as I see in your config, work around

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slow keyboard response issues.

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[Ben]: And also the fact that that's still

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in the config despite Twitter itself...

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I think I abandoned it in 2017, but it takes me a

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little while to rip things out of my config.

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[Sacha]: Yeah, I see you're a lot more

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active in Mastodon these days. I see your

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Monsterdon posts scrolled by my feed every so often.

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Yeah, so we dove right into that because a lot

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of the stuff in your config is interesting and

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your workflows too.

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My idea for these Emacs chats is to

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show people the kind of stuff that isn't

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immediately obvious to newbies when they're

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looking at someone's config.

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Because a lot of the stuff is new workflows and

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how the keyboard shortcuts work together and how

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this stuff fits into your life.

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That's not immediately obvious from the code.

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I've taken a look at your config, but before

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we jump into the gazillion things I wanted to ask

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you about, are there things that you particularly

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love about your Emacs workflow?

NOTE
Emacs as a media playback platform with Versuri and Mpdel
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#+SCREENSHOT_TIME: 00:07:24.567

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[Ben]: I'm probably going to get

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a little bit of deserved flak for this, but I

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use Emacs a lot as a media playback platform.

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I spend a lot of time using Emacs to listen to

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music through MPV.

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And I've got some integration with Versuri, which

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lets me...

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I think you've seen those customizations

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where what I've done is I've kind of duct-taped

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the two together.

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Versuri is an Emacs package for being able to

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quickly search through lyrics for songs.

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What I've done is I've bound Versuri to the

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point where

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I've pulled up a page of lyrics, I now have a

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hotkey that bounces me over to a search of my MPD

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library for where that song is, and vice versa.

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I've got MPD rigged up so that when I've got a

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song currently playing, I can bounce into

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Verisuri to display the lyrics for that

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particular song.

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Something you probably have not seen in my config

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yet because I haven't finished it yet...

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What I'm working on is actually integrating

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Org Mode with MPD, because I'd really like to be able to

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streamline my process where occasionally when I'm

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listening to something, I'll take notes either

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about the lyrics or about the song. I'd like

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to be able to link from Org Mode directly to

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either that song, that album, or that particular

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timecode.

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I don't have that yet, but I'm working on it.

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I think I'll probably lean on it quite a bit once

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I have it.

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[Sacha]: Yeah, yeah.

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I saw your tweet from May, I think, where you're

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talking about coming up with this

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way of taking notes.

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think if you come up with maybe a custom

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Org Mode link type that can store the annotation

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and then let you go to it, I think that would be

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really interesting.

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Especially if you figure out, okay, like, are you

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taking notes in the album?

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Are you taking notes on the song?

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Are you taking notes on this moment in the song?

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That could all be very cool.

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[Ben]: Actually, do you mind if I share my screen?

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[Sacha]: Please.

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[Ben]: So one of the things I wanted to

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kind of note was... Let me... Oh yeah, this is

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actually going to be further embarrassing.

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I'm a terminal Emacs user.

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[Sacha]: I saw.

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Can you increase the font size, though?

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[Ben]: Absolutely, yeah.

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[Sacha]: Resizing your terminal so it's smaller

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makes everything look bigger...

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[Ben]: Is that better?

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[Sacha]: More.

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Some of us are older.

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Thank you.

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[Ben]: One of the things that's kind of unusual about

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my MPD configuration is I've got a satellite config.

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Sorry, the line wrap is a little bit off here.

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What this means is that I have...

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the household file server maintains the MPD

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library, but I've got multiple playback nodes

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around the house. What that lets me do is...

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[Sacha]: You can play stuff on this...

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[Ben]: So what this means is that I'm controlling the...

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well, in this case, that's a little

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MeLE Quieter3C that I've got in the living room

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that's kind of like the

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the home media server, the home playback machine.

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Fundamentally, I'm an ops guy, I'm a sys admin,

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and I've got, unfortunately, a fleet of machines around the house.

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What this lets me do is easily control each

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one of them.

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Instead of each one maintaining its own

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library of music files, the file server itself

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indexes them, which means that library updates

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are almost instantaneous, instead of having to

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read over the network to pull metadata out of

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each individual file.

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So having a satellite setup lets me...

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The real benefit is that MPD tracks albums,

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directories, and files as URLs.

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That means that I have a single global

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namespace of URLs for all of the media that's

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currently in the library, which means that I can

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annotate from any machine, but have it mean one thing.

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It makes it convenient for navigation, but it

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also makes it convenient for keeping notes, which

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I'm currently doing manually and working on those

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Org link types to be able to make it a little bit

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more smooth than it currently is.

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[Sacha]: So you've got your central store of music files.

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You've got URLs for them so you can talk about them.

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That's just one identifier per song.

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You've got multiple speakers that you can use

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your completing interface to say, okay, I want to

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play this over there.

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You have Emacs controlling all of that.

NOTE Emacs on Android with Termux

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Now, is that Emacs on your laptop and you just

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take it around and you say, okay, I'm going to

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sit in the living room for a little bit or

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whatever and play there.

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Or do you... Ah, there you go.

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That's what I was going to ask.

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All right.

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So Emacs on your phone.

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The Android port or Termux?

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[Ben]: I have both installed.

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I think you actually saw this a few months

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ago when I was running performance comparisons

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between the Termux version of Emacs and the

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native port, and found that the native port

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generally ran anything CPU-intensive

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roughly twice as fast.

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But I still use the Termux version because it's...

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I'm not sure if you played around with the

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Android terminal virtualization layer at all, but

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it's not great.

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I really appreciate the integration that

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Termux gives me with Android features.

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For example, being able to query the sensors,

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such as GPS or temperature sensors, and I can

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actually pull those in from the Emacs side.

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And that's something I kind of want to get into.

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[Sacha]: What do you think of using the

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temperature sensors for?

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What can Emacs do with that?

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[Ben]: It's not so much the fact that I

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use the temperature sensors as that when I pull

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the sensors, that's the most remarkable value

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that I get out of it.

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But one of the interesting things is the

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barometric pressure sensor, which gives me

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height, which matters because when I'm out and

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about and if I stop to record an entry in my

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journal, for example, I'll just pull the sensors

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and dump them into the header in the entry that I'm writing.

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The barometric sensor, I'll get the GPS, so

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that'll tell me what the actual height is at that

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location on the earth. The barometric sensor

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also gives me a little bit of insight into the weather.

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So it's not so much the temperature sensor

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is what my temperature is, but just like if

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it's a hot day or not.

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[Sacha]: I am very curious about that setup.

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So if you happen to share your, I don't know, Org

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capture for Termux that includes all these things...

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You don't have to show me the actual stuff, but

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you know, at some point I think other people will

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be curious about what kind of benefits they can

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get from running Emacs on their phones.

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[Ben]: So, I mean, I guess I'll...

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One of the benefits that I get is the ability to

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keep shopping.

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So I'm a little bit of a militant cyclist.

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One of the things that I often do is leave

NOTE
#+SCREENSHOT: emacs-chat-25-ben-zanin-00-12-04-333.jpg
#+SCREENSHOT_TIME: 00:12:04.333

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notes about things that I need to take care of in

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particular areas of the city.

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The nice thing is that I can just drop them

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directly in commits right as I'm going.

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So I often have a long list of updates that are

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from Emacs on my phone, just because it's convenient.

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All right.

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There we go for Monsterdon, in fact.

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[Sacha]: Nice, nice.

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Then that's

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Syncthing or whatever else to just get it copied back

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to your laptop or just on your phone?

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[Ben]: Straight Magit mode.

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[Sacha]: Oh, yeah?

00:12:21.035 --> 00:12:22.117
[Ben]: That's one of the things that I

00:12:22.177 --> 00:12:23.759
found was a little bit clunkier when I was

00:12:23.819 --> 00:12:28.646
running virtualized Emacs under the Android

00:12:28.686 --> 00:12:32.491
emulator and also the native Android port of

00:12:32.571 --> 00:12:33.132
Emacs.

00:12:34.158 --> 00:12:37.547
They are a little bit more troublesome to get

00:12:37.627 --> 00:12:38.971
Magit to work.

00:12:39.232 --> 00:12:41.157
Because I rely on that for syncing back and

00:12:41.197 --> 00:12:41.959
forth from my phone,

00:12:43.243 --> 00:12:44.927
that's one of the reasons why I stuck with Termux.

00:12:45.346 --> 00:12:46.928
[Sacha]: Very cool, very cool.

00:12:47.228 --> 00:12:50.252
I like Termux's little bar of extra

00:12:50.352 --> 00:12:52.195
keyboard keys that you can have, so you can have

00:12:52.235 --> 00:12:53.897
a regular keyboard and then you can just have

00:12:53.937 --> 00:12:56.561
your Controls and your Alts and whatever on that

00:12:56.621 --> 00:12:57.582
little extra bar.

00:12:58.143 --> 00:13:01.046
Termux is quite interesting.

00:13:01.807 --> 00:13:03.069
[Ben]: I think I'm probably pushing it

00:13:03.129 --> 00:13:04.791
harder than it is meant to be pushed.

00:13:04.811 --> 00:13:06.173
[Sacha]: That's the fun of it.

00:13:06.814 --> 00:13:08.656
I don't exactly know how everything will shake

00:13:08.756 --> 00:13:11.760
out, but probably with Google trying to lock down

00:13:11.800 --> 00:13:13.142
the developer ecosystem

00:13:13.392 --> 00:13:14.373
in a few months, right?

00:13:14.393 --> 00:13:16.515
They're saying, oh, you know, it's got to be ADB

00:13:16.635 --> 00:13:19.137
in order to get these unsigned apps on.

00:13:19.177 --> 00:13:20.599
We'll have to see how it all shakes out.

00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:23.461
But I'm hoping Termux can survive because I like

00:13:23.501 --> 00:13:23.982
that one too.

00:13:24.883 --> 00:13:25.503
[Ben]: Yeah, me too.

00:13:26.985 --> 00:13:28.766
[Sacha]: Okay, so you've got interesting

00:13:28.806 --> 00:13:32.049
music, an interesting music setup with lyrics and

00:13:32.089 --> 00:13:33.411
playback and all that stuff.

00:13:33.431 --> 00:13:36.594
You've got your phone, which also runs Emacs and

00:13:36.774 --> 00:13:38.916
from which you can, you've also set it up so you

00:13:38.956 --> 00:13:40.477
can control your music from your phone?

00:13:41.018 --> 00:13:41.458
[Ben]: Yes.

00:13:41.793 --> 00:13:43.255
[Sacha]: Okay.

NOTE Keyboards and other devices

00:13:44.296 --> 00:13:45.958
When I was reading through your toots, I noticed

00:13:46.038 --> 00:13:48.300
you like to play around with other keyboards and

00:13:48.340 --> 00:13:49.882
other devices like the 8BitDo.

00:13:50.143 --> 00:13:51.965
Do you have any of that talking to Emacs too?

00:13:53.647 --> 00:13:55.288
[Ben]: [Keychron B11 Pro is] the keyboard I'm currently using.

00:13:57.010 --> 00:13:59.133
I got this so I could keep it in my purse and

00:13:59.173 --> 00:14:00.835
just like walk around with it, but it turns out

00:14:00.895 --> 00:14:04.038
it's super comfortable and I'm accidentally using

00:14:04.058 --> 00:14:04.839
it as a daily driver.

00:14:05.180 --> 00:14:05.460
[Sacha]: All right.

00:14:05.500 --> 00:14:07.022
Name-drop the keyboard for all the people who

00:14:07.062 --> 00:14:09.825
like the device recommendations.

00:14:10.042 --> 00:14:12.667
[Ben]: It's a Keychron B11 Pro.

00:14:12.787 --> 00:14:13.629
It runs ZMK.

00:14:15.272 --> 00:14:16.093
ZMK, I suppose.

00:14:16.514 --> 00:14:18.136
And if you've seen me interacting with

00:14:18.137 --> 00:14:20.441
Pete Johanson on Mastodon, he's the lead developer of

00:14:20.481 --> 00:14:21.263
that firmware package.

00:14:21.583 --> 00:14:23.767
It's a little bit like QMK, except that

00:14:24.669 --> 00:14:27.514
fundamentally QMK is a polling architecture, and

00:14:27.554 --> 00:14:30.540
it works really well for very restricted

00:14:30.580 --> 00:14:31.261
microcontrollers.

00:14:31.802 --> 00:14:36.689
ZMK is interrupt-based, which means it is

00:14:37.049 --> 00:14:40.493
tremendously more efficient in terms of power draw.

00:14:40.513 --> 00:14:41.875
So if you want a Bluetooth keyboard, you should

00:14:41.895 --> 00:14:42.976
probably run ZMK on it.

00:14:43.116 --> 00:14:45.398
Anyhow, yeah, it's fantastic.

00:14:45.418 --> 00:14:49.022
And I do have a bit of a keyboard problem where I

00:14:49.423 --> 00:14:53.006
tend to...

00:14:53.007 --> 00:14:55.069
[Sacha]: Many Emacs people have keyboard problems.

00:14:55.690 --> 00:14:58.593
[Ben]: Right? I feel like I'm in good company right now.

00:15:00.775 --> 00:15:01.716
[Sacha]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:03.265 --> 00:15:05.931
So, devices, yep, gotcha.

00:15:05.951 --> 00:15:08.296
And this has become your main keyboard even for

00:15:08.737 --> 00:15:09.539
regular computing?

00:15:10.140 --> 00:15:11.603
[Ben]: In the last couple of weeks, yeah.

00:15:11.684 --> 00:15:13.047
It's super comfortable.

00:15:13.067 --> 00:15:15.853
Because it's so flat, I can get away without

00:15:15.893 --> 00:15:18.058
having to use palm rests to actually keep in a

00:15:18.118 --> 00:15:18.739
decent posture,

00:15:19.441 --> 00:15:22.287
because of the curvature of it..

00:15:22.790 --> 00:15:24.273
Like, it's an Alice layout.

00:15:24.934 --> 00:15:26.536
The key travel isn't too bad.

00:15:26.577 --> 00:15:27.558
It's actually quite comfortable.

00:15:29.181 --> 00:15:30.824
I found that I needed a little bit of

00:15:30.864 --> 00:15:33.068
acclimatization to get used to split keyboards.

00:15:33.749 --> 00:15:38.557
This one has roughly the spread of a split,

00:15:38.577 --> 00:15:40.821
but it seems to be easier for my muscle memory.

00:15:40.841 --> 00:15:43.045
So yeah, I didn't intend to leave it on my desk,

00:15:43.125 --> 00:15:46.030
but it stuck and has kind of stayed there for now.

00:15:46.499 --> 00:15:48.583
[Sacha]: Does it have any special ergonomics

00:15:48.683 --> 00:15:51.429
for all the modifiers that we like to do?

00:15:52.812 --> 00:15:55.177
Or do you just use Caps as Control or whatever else?

00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:58.343
[Ben]: Actually, I don't use Caps as

00:15:58.423 --> 00:16:00.027
Control and I actually really need to get into

00:16:00.067 --> 00:16:00.728
remapping that.

00:16:01.518 --> 00:16:06.064
ZMK has a very rich remapping story, as I expect

00:16:06.084 --> 00:16:08.588
you to imagine, from a custom firmware.

00:16:09.149 --> 00:16:12.954
The macros are intense, and you can get

00:16:12.994 --> 00:16:14.256
really deep in customization.

00:16:14.276 --> 00:16:15.778
I have done none of that on this keyboard

00:16:15.798 --> 00:16:18.602
yet, because it's only, I think, a couple of

00:16:18.642 --> 00:16:19.543
months old at this point.

00:16:20.249 --> 00:16:21.251
[Sacha]: You've been settling in.

00:16:21.331 --> 00:16:23.174
As you said, this has been your

00:16:23.435 --> 00:16:24.737
main keyboard for a little while.

00:16:25.378 --> 00:16:27.382
Charlie Baker says, "yeah, I love the split keyboard.

00:16:27.442 --> 00:16:29.105
Recently bought one myself.

00:16:29.246 --> 00:16:30.909
I was getting so much neck pain, you know,

00:16:30.949 --> 00:16:32.772
shoulder and neck pain from so many hours keeping

00:16:32.832 --> 00:16:34.014
hands close together."

00:16:34.034 --> 00:16:35.938
But the split lets his shoulders relax.

00:16:36.038 --> 00:16:39.404
So probably you're getting the same, like, ha, my arms.

NOTE Benefits of a split keyboard

00:16:44.195 --> 00:16:45.818
[Ben]: The two things that I first noticed

00:16:45.838 --> 00:16:48.243
when I moved to a split keyboard was one, my

00:16:48.303 --> 00:16:50.968
wrists started feeling a lot nicer and two, I was

00:16:51.008 --> 00:16:53.253
immediately able to bench press like 20 pounds

00:16:53.293 --> 00:16:56.098
more the next week.

00:16:57.120 --> 00:16:59.225
It was amazing how much of a difference it made

00:16:59.485 --> 00:17:00.988
and it showed up in the data.

00:17:01.998 --> 00:17:03.359
[Sacha]: Wow.

00:17:03.620 --> 00:17:07.103
There was a weightlifting talk at EmacsConf last year, I think.

00:17:07.183 --> 00:17:09.606
So there's a surprising overlap between the

00:17:09.646 --> 00:17:11.406
people who are checking their weightlifting stats

00:17:11.446 --> 00:17:13.368
and the people who are into Emacs.

00:17:13.388 --> 00:17:14.410
Naturally, with Org Mode.

00:17:14.510 --> 00:17:14.991
There you go.

00:17:16.873 --> 00:17:18.614
[Ben]: Let's not look at those numbers too closely.

00:17:18.634 --> 00:17:20.516
I'm not too proud of a bunch of them.

00:17:20.536 --> 00:17:23.118
But yes, I find that Org capture templates let me

00:17:23.138 --> 00:17:24.740
keep on top of that and not really think about

00:17:24.781 --> 00:17:26.722
it, which is great because you don't want to

00:17:26.742 --> 00:17:27.123
think about it.

00:17:27.143 --> 00:17:29.445
You want to gather the data and think about it

00:17:29.525 --> 00:17:31.347
separately so that you can

00:17:31.462 --> 00:17:34.005
stay emotionally divested from what the numbers mean.

00:17:34.505 --> 00:17:34.846
[Sacha]: I know.

00:17:35.046 --> 00:17:39.751
I'm totally happy to dig into the Org capture,

00:17:40.111 --> 00:17:42.233
especially if you do any graphing.

00:17:42.253 --> 00:17:45.116
People always love graphing their progress, right?

00:17:45.136 --> 00:17:47.379
But if you're like, I don't really want to show

00:17:47.439 --> 00:17:49.481
my numbers at the moment, that is also

00:17:49.541 --> 00:17:50.722
understandable and okay.

00:17:51.443 --> 00:17:52.344
[Ben]: I don't, I'm afraid. Sorry.

00:17:52.384 --> 00:17:53.925
[Sacha]: That's okay.

00:17:53.985 --> 00:17:55.827
[Ben]: It took me a couple years to get

00:17:55.907 --> 00:17:58.630
used to being on camera at all.

00:17:58.650 --> 00:18:03.833
I don't really like my appearance very much.

00:18:03.834 --> 00:18:07.550
I'm working on that, as you can see.

00:18:07.551 --> 00:18:07.550
I've had to work on that to be able to work remotely.

00:18:07.551 --> 00:18:07.550
It's a work in progress.

00:18:07.551 --> 00:18:07.550
I'm getting through it.

00:18:07.551 --> 00:18:17.490
[Sacha]: You know us. We're very much focused on text.

00:18:17.550 --> 00:18:19.854
In fact, you even use Emacs in the terminal.

00:18:19.975 --> 00:18:21.718
That's very text-y.

NOTE Meeting workflow

00:18:22.053 --> 00:18:24.759
One of the interesting things actually that I

00:18:24.979 --> 00:18:27.264
wanted to ask you about since you mentioned

00:18:27.304 --> 00:18:31.754
meetings is you probably also have the role of

00:18:31.794 --> 00:18:33.057
designated note-taker.

00:18:33.097 --> 00:18:35.361
You mentioned in one of your toots that you take

00:18:35.442 --> 00:18:37.466
notes and people are like, what are you doing that in?

00:18:37.867 --> 00:18:38.949
How are you taking your notes?

00:18:39.591 --> 00:18:40.753
And it's Emacs.

00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:44.003
[Ben]: Yes, so actually that's one of the

00:18:44.023 --> 00:18:45.584
things I should lead off with as an apology.

00:18:46.385 --> 00:18:48.807
I probably won't be able to share

00:18:48.847 --> 00:18:50.609
many of my capture templates because I don't use

00:18:50.629 --> 00:18:52.211
them in my personal life very much.

00:18:53.172 --> 00:18:55.954
They're mostly on my work machine. I've

00:18:55.974 --> 00:18:58.877
got capture templates for impromptu meetings

00:18:59.858 --> 00:19:02.240
where it's just like an exploratory, we have a

00:19:02.280 --> 00:19:03.582
problem we need to solve, we're kind of talking

00:19:03.602 --> 00:19:04.222
through a discussion,

00:19:04.683 --> 00:19:06.424
a separate capture template for meetings with

00:19:06.445 --> 00:19:08.406
agendas to make sure that we stay on them and

00:19:08.426 --> 00:19:10.048
that we log decisions,

00:19:10.163 --> 00:19:14.988
and a separate set of templates for... So I have

00:19:15.028 --> 00:19:16.990
a team of direct reports and they each have

00:19:17.010 --> 00:19:19.333
different cares and different topics that we're

00:19:19.353 --> 00:19:21.775
working to develop in their professional careers.

00:19:21.795 --> 00:19:23.677
I find that it's really useful to be able to

00:19:24.117 --> 00:19:26.100
keep some continuity between our conversations.

00:19:26.120 --> 00:19:27.721
It also makes it very easy to export that

00:19:27.781 --> 00:19:29.964
entire dataset, share it with them to make sure

00:19:30.004 --> 00:19:31.805
that they can consult it at the same time.

00:19:31.825 --> 00:19:33.888
If I got anything wrong, I can fold their

00:19:33.928 --> 00:19:35.409
corrections in.

00:19:35.429 --> 00:19:36.931
But all of those templates, unfortunately, are on

00:19:36.971 --> 00:19:38.112
my work machine.

00:19:38.260 --> 00:19:41.143
[Sacha]: We'll just sketch out the general

00:19:41.243 --> 00:19:45.608
idea in abstract details and then people who want

00:19:45.628 --> 00:19:48.552
to implement it for themselves can fill in the blanks.

00:19:49.232 --> 00:19:51.135
For example, when you're having a meeting with

00:19:51.215 --> 00:19:54.458
your direct reports, are the tasks related to

00:19:54.498 --> 00:19:56.040
them in an Org agenda?

00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:57.582
Are you using dynamic blocks?

00:19:58.123 --> 00:20:01.767
Is it tracked somewhere else or is it in Org?

00:20:01.867 --> 00:20:06.512
[Ben]: It's straight in Org mode.

00:20:06.745 --> 00:20:09.871
So most of the touch points that we have are more

00:20:09.931 --> 00:20:15.001
about professional development and their cares

00:20:15.061 --> 00:20:17.186
and concerns, rather than specific deliverables.

00:20:17.807 --> 00:20:19.911
Usually deliverables we manage at a team level.

00:20:20.768 --> 00:20:23.854
But if there are specific things that individuals

00:20:23.894 --> 00:20:27.660
are working on, they will be in to-dos under

00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:29.624
their subheadings in a way that show up on the

00:20:29.664 --> 00:20:32.128
agenda if we have assigned deadlines for them.

00:20:32.509 --> 00:20:35.595
But generally, if there's a deadline on a task,

00:20:35.615 --> 00:20:37.478
it's because

00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:40.044
I'm doing something and they need to track it, or

00:20:40.225 --> 00:20:41.588
they're doing something and I need to track it.

00:20:42.229 --> 00:20:44.594
If I'm the only guy using Emacs, then Org

00:20:44.614 --> 00:20:45.696
Mode won't work for that,

00:20:45.716 --> 00:20:48.462
so there aren't a lot of those.

00:20:48.803 --> 00:20:50.226
But if it's just something that I need to check

00:20:50.286 --> 00:20:51.889
up on to make sure that

00:20:53.422 --> 00:20:55.906
something that... Like they've got planned leave for

00:20:55.966 --> 00:20:58.089
example, or they have a cousin's wedding that

00:20:58.109 --> 00:21:01.054
they need to go off to, or something that I just

00:21:01.074 --> 00:21:02.996
need to keep in my brain that's not necessarily

00:21:03.057 --> 00:21:05.140
deliverable, then it would be

00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:06.942
appropriate to keep that in a place where it'll

00:21:06.983 --> 00:21:07.964
only show up on my agenda.

00:21:08.465 --> 00:21:10.748
So that's the kind of decision making that I

00:21:10.768 --> 00:21:11.209
apply there.

NOTE Narrowing

00:21:11.710 --> 00:21:12.731
[Sacha]: And you mentioned you have a

00:21:12.791 --> 00:21:15.535
subheading, I guess a subheading per person or

00:21:15.576 --> 00:21:18.520
sort of... Or do you use tags to keep track

00:21:18.580 --> 00:21:20.543
of something that might touch several people?

00:21:21.063 --> 00:21:22.484
[Ben]: Usually a section per person, and

00:21:22.504 --> 00:21:24.046
that's more of a convenience than anything else.

00:21:24.867 --> 00:21:27.129
That lets me narrow to just that subheading and

00:21:27.169 --> 00:21:29.031
share my screen during the meetings.

00:21:29.051 --> 00:21:31.353
Then I don't have to worry about accidentally

00:21:31.393 --> 00:21:32.935
leaking anybody else's information into the

00:21:32.955 --> 00:21:34.256
screen share or anything like that.

00:21:34.957 --> 00:21:38.720
Obviously we let off with conversations about

00:21:38.740 --> 00:21:40.042
them being all right with that.

00:21:41.023 --> 00:21:46.348
But the ability to very clearly and simply

00:21:46.408 --> 00:21:47.509
delineate

00:21:47.489 --> 00:21:50.654
"This domain of my notes pertains to this person"

00:21:51.275 --> 00:21:53.859
and being able to be confident and share that

00:21:53.899 --> 00:21:56.042
confidence that there will be no leakage means

00:21:56.062 --> 00:21:58.626
that we can explore topics and talk about them in

00:21:58.666 --> 00:22:02.391
a way that might otherwise be a little bit more

00:22:02.451 --> 00:22:03.333
restrictive.

00:22:03.433 --> 00:22:06.457
So being able to do that simply, and being able to

00:22:06.518 --> 00:22:10.283
establish a very clear delineation around whose

00:22:10.323 --> 00:22:12.186
information belongs where and where it should be

00:22:12.226 --> 00:22:14.830
shared turns out to be pretty valuable.

00:22:15.130 --> 00:22:16.913
[Sacha]: Yeah, and that's a technique I

00:22:16.953 --> 00:22:19.938
think that especially people who are new to Emacs

00:22:19.978 --> 00:22:22.081
and who aren't used to narrowing and widening

00:22:22.542 --> 00:22:24.746
might not know how to use effectively.

00:22:25.387 --> 00:22:27.631
I think narrow is even one of the commands that's

00:22:27.731 --> 00:22:28.752
disabled by default.

00:22:28.773 --> 00:22:30.636
You've got to say, yeah, you know, I'm not scared.

00:22:30.656 --> 00:22:31.637
I know what to do.

00:22:32.378 --> 00:22:34.622
[Ben]: Yeah, it's kind of bizarre to me

00:22:34.722 --> 00:22:36.345
that it is, but yeah.

00:22:36.528 --> 00:22:38.631
[Sacha]: I can imagine people accidentally

00:22:38.671 --> 00:22:40.574
triggering it and they're like, oh no, the rest

00:22:40.614 --> 00:22:41.635
of my file is missing.

00:22:42.136 --> 00:22:43.978
But if you know how to narrow to a region, and

00:22:44.099 --> 00:22:47.624
Org even has those commands to easily narrow to a subtree...

00:22:48.345 --> 00:22:52.190
I think it's even part of the default speed

00:22:52.230 --> 00:22:54.073
command so you can trigger it right from a heading.

00:22:54.653 --> 00:22:57.878
But it's great for that kind of restriction.

NOTE There's even an internal Slack channel about Emacs at Ben's company

00:22:58.718 --> 00:23:01.541
Okay, so the reason why I was asking about that

00:23:01.621 --> 00:23:04.084
is because some people are working with people

00:23:04.124 --> 00:23:06.487
who are not using Emacs, so it's very interesting

00:23:06.527 --> 00:23:10.050
to see what the kinds of... It's very rare for

00:23:10.091 --> 00:23:11.692
people to work with other people who actually

00:23:11.792 --> 00:23:14.255
use... Are there any other Emacs people in your

00:23:14.315 --> 00:23:15.336
company, for example?

00:23:16.057 --> 00:23:18.480
[Ben]: There's an entire Emacs Slack topic

00:23:18.520 --> 00:23:19.521
about that, yeah.

00:23:19.821 --> 00:23:20.542
It's kind of great.

00:23:21.043 --> 00:23:23.906
[Sacha]: What is that like to have co-workers who do Emacs?

00:23:23.926 --> 00:23:26.008
Because this is a rare experience.

00:23:26.242 --> 00:23:27.143
[Ben]: It's super cool.

00:23:28.305 --> 00:23:31.149
It's also neat to see the very, very different

00:23:31.209 --> 00:23:32.651
ways that people use it.

00:23:34.934 --> 00:23:38.939
But yeah, oftentimes people will talk about

00:23:38.979 --> 00:23:40.782
problems that they have with particular internal

00:23:40.802 --> 00:23:43.846
tools, and somebody's like, oh yeah, go check out

00:23:43.886 --> 00:23:46.009
this repo on GitLab that I published last week

00:23:46.069 --> 00:23:48.573
where I got sick of it and decided to solve that

00:23:48.613 --> 00:23:49.654
problem categorically.

00:23:51.256 --> 00:23:52.358
It's actually super cool.

00:23:52.418 --> 00:23:55.422
And some of the folks at...

00:23:55.638 --> 00:23:58.803
Generally, I tried not to mention my current

00:23:58.863 --> 00:23:59.664
employer at any point.

00:24:00.125 --> 00:24:01.167
Obviously, it's not secret.

00:24:01.507 --> 00:24:02.709
It's in the init file.

00:24:02.769 --> 00:24:06.034
But yeah, I don't tend to get into that deeply.

00:24:06.074 --> 00:24:08.058
But some of the other people who work at my

00:24:08.098 --> 00:24:13.466
company, they maintain venerable Emacs packages.

00:24:13.686 --> 00:24:15.850
So it's awesome to be able to go and talk with

00:24:15.910 --> 00:24:17.292
some of the folks who

00:24:17.542 --> 00:24:18.964
I've been working on the code that I've been

00:24:19.004 --> 00:24:21.367
using for a decade and we are now coworkers.

00:24:21.387 --> 00:24:22.769
It's lovely.

00:24:23.530 --> 00:24:24.712
[Sacha]: Oh, that's so nice.

00:24:25.213 --> 00:24:27.176
I'm glad you have that kind of little community

00:24:27.236 --> 00:24:28.457
in there.

00:24:28.477 --> 00:24:33.705
[Ben]: Yeah. Bunch of nerds.

00:24:33.725 --> 00:24:36.989
[Sacha]: So I suspect some people will be looking up your

00:24:37.029 --> 00:24:37.931
company after this.

00:24:37.951 --> 00:24:39.813
I think it's also mentioned in LinkedIn and sort

00:24:39.833 --> 00:24:41.335
of like, okay, let's see if there's any job

00:24:41.355 --> 00:24:41.536
openings.

00:24:41.556 --> 00:24:42.898
[Ben]: If it's mentioned on LinkedIn, that

00:24:42.978 --> 00:24:43.979
is somebody else.

00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:46.503
I haven't logged into LinkedIn in 15 years and I

00:24:46.663 --> 00:24:50.339
never will.

NOTE Ben keeps Org capture templates as individual files and adapts them to different meeting flows

00:24:50.340 --> 00:24:51.823
[Sacha]: We do have a question from Shae.

00:24:51.843 --> 00:24:54.388
Shae is asking, how do you make a capture

00:24:54.428 --> 00:24:57.415
template to stay on agenda and record decisions?

00:24:58.076 --> 00:24:59.178
You got any tips for that?

00:24:59.419 --> 00:25:04.309
I'm guessing this is more of a human thing rather

00:25:04.350 --> 00:25:06.474
than an Org thing, but maybe you have some ideas

00:25:07.015 --> 00:25:08.338
on how you keep something on track.

00:25:08.757 --> 00:25:10.300
[Ben]: So I'll actually push back on the

00:25:10.320 --> 00:25:11.802
"It's a human thing rather than an Org thing".

00:25:13.085 --> 00:25:16.711
I strongly believe that one of the real values

00:25:16.751 --> 00:25:19.797
of Org Mode is that it's a very plastic system.

00:25:20.297 --> 00:25:22.261
Fundamentally, I think that it is a human system

00:25:22.702 --> 00:25:24.725
because it allows you to express exactly those

00:25:24.765 --> 00:25:28.572
kinds of trade-offs in a really, really fluid way.

00:25:29.378 --> 00:25:31.921
I love the personal information management that

00:25:32.021 --> 00:25:33.523
Palm Pilots provided, for example,

00:25:33.583 --> 00:25:34.624
but it was pretty restrictive.

00:25:34.724 --> 00:25:37.427
One of the things that I love about Org Mode

00:25:37.888 --> 00:25:40.531
is that if you find that a particular person has

00:25:40.771 --> 00:25:43.615
a particular conversation style, it's really easy

00:25:43.775 --> 00:25:46.178
to modify your Org Mode capture templates to be

00:25:46.218 --> 00:25:47.739
able to capture that particular flow that you

00:25:47.800 --> 00:25:48.701
have with that person.

00:25:49.502 --> 00:25:52.385
Or with a particular group of a recurring

00:25:52.425 --> 00:25:54.067
meeting, for example, that tends to flow in a

00:25:54.107 --> 00:25:55.048
particular way.

00:25:55.028 --> 00:25:57.935
Super easy to update the templates that I use to

00:25:57.995 --> 00:26:00.241
capture those particular meetings to make it

00:26:00.361 --> 00:26:02.907
easier to match the general conversation flow

00:26:03.008 --> 00:26:06.556
with the notes that I will be taking about it.

00:26:06.576 --> 00:26:07.438
[Sacha]: Wow, that sounds pretty

00:26:07.459 --> 00:26:08.481
sophisticated.

00:26:08.832 --> 00:26:10.394
[Ben]: Well, I mean, that's the thing.

00:26:10.414 --> 00:26:11.455
It's not sophisticated.

00:26:11.536 --> 00:26:17.483
It tracks the human process very easily.

00:26:17.503 --> 00:26:18.905
So it's really lightweight.

00:26:19.025 --> 00:26:21.048
So you don't have to have a lot of sophistication

00:26:21.428 --> 00:26:23.471
to make it very, very useful.

00:26:23.511 --> 00:26:25.033
You just have to have a feedback loop that you

00:26:25.053 --> 00:26:28.257
can tune every time with one or two minutes of effort.

00:26:28.538 --> 00:26:32.703
And that's one of the reasons why I depend on

00:26:32.763 --> 00:26:34.926
Magit mode so much is that it lets me track

00:26:34.946 --> 00:26:35.667
those things.

00:26:37.368 --> 00:26:39.480
But yeah, to answer Shae's question about how do

00:26:39.560 --> 00:26:41.893
I track those particular things.

00:26:42.768 --> 00:26:47.394
So if it's a meeting where one of my direct reports

00:26:47.395 --> 00:26:50.399
has a particular set of topics that we

00:26:50.419 --> 00:26:51.861
tend to investigate, like somebody who's

00:26:51.901 --> 00:26:53.163
concentrated on career growth.

00:26:53.223 --> 00:26:55.025
So we're talking about the areas in which we want

00:26:55.045 --> 00:26:55.706
to see development.

00:26:56.367 --> 00:26:58.510
I'll absolutely update the capture templates for

00:26:58.530 --> 00:27:00.313
that particular person to say, all right, here's

00:27:00.333 --> 00:27:01.294
what we talked about last time.

00:27:01.835 --> 00:27:04.799
Here are the things that were done between our

00:27:05.560 --> 00:27:08.224
last two conversations about how we move in that direction.

00:27:08.544 --> 00:27:11.188
Were they successful or not?

00:27:11.168 --> 00:27:12.630
Did it require a lot of effort?

00:27:12.690 --> 00:27:14.151
So was it something that more effort should be

00:27:14.231 --> 00:27:17.374
put into to be able to drive down the work over time,

00:27:17.375 --> 00:27:18.917
to be able to produce those results?

00:27:19.317 --> 00:27:20.557
But yeah, that goes into the templates

00:27:20.558 --> 00:27:23.962
and that goes into the cadence of conversations that we

00:27:24.002 --> 00:27:25.304
talked about in Capture.

00:27:25.324 --> 00:27:26.265
[Sacha]: So that's really interesting.

00:27:26.285 --> 00:27:30.329
You modify the capture templates with the

00:27:30.429 --> 00:27:33.112
notes that you want to have easily available the

00:27:33.193 --> 00:27:34.454
next time you chat with them.

00:27:35.015 --> 00:27:38.138
[Ben]: Exactly, yeah.

00:27:38.708 --> 00:27:40.750
[Sacha]: The capture templates are still defined as a

00:27:40.810 --> 00:27:43.192
setq somewhere in your thing, or are you

00:27:43.212 --> 00:27:44.954
going into the customized interface?

00:27:46.135 --> 00:27:47.316
[Ben]: So I actually keep the capture mode

00:27:47.336 --> 00:27:51.861
templates as raw files that are referred to, and

00:27:52.161 --> 00:27:53.803
that makes it easier to version them in a way

00:27:53.863 --> 00:27:58.127
that like, I mean, sure, like my Emacs init file,

00:27:58.167 --> 00:27:59.969
if you look at the Git history of it, it has a

00:28:00.049 --> 00:28:00.889
whole bunch of different...

00:28:06.502 --> 00:28:07.884
[Sacha]: I had not considered having capture

00:28:07.904 --> 00:28:09.166
templates as files files.

00:28:10.027 --> 00:28:10.948
It worked out really well.

00:28:11.329 --> 00:28:14.833
[Ben]: So you can see that... It's a little

00:28:14.853 --> 00:28:17.237
bit hard to see with the font this small, but you

00:28:17.277 --> 00:28:22.604
can see that I've got a lot of changes to, for

00:28:22.664 --> 00:28:30.535
example, my init file, but keeping them in

00:28:30.953 --> 00:28:33.978
individual capture mode template files makes it a

00:28:34.018 --> 00:28:37.082
little bit easier to just look at the history of

00:28:37.103 --> 00:28:38.605
that particular file and see why particular

00:28:38.625 --> 00:28:39.226
changes were made.

00:28:39.827 --> 00:28:40.968
[Sacha]: I'm going to try that.

00:28:41.289 --> 00:28:43.332
I think that's a great idea because it allows you

00:28:43.372 --> 00:28:45.616
to be a lot more granular about the notes.

NOTE Personal-scale software and the journey

00:28:45.936 --> 00:28:48.220
I saw in that very brief flash of your change

00:28:48.280 --> 00:28:50.363
log message that you like to write

00:28:50.444 --> 00:28:52.867
Fairly detailed commit messages that talk about

00:28:53.068 --> 00:28:55.691
why a change was made instead of just a new

00:28:55.732 --> 00:28:56.673
function, new command.

00:28:57.033 --> 00:28:59.938
Very terse updates that I sometimes just try to

00:28:59.958 --> 00:29:00.458
get away with.

00:29:00.879 --> 00:29:02.942
Tell us more about that because I think you've

00:29:03.322 --> 00:29:06.327
had a couple of toots about reading source code

00:29:06.387 --> 00:29:07.268
and reading commits.

00:29:08.650 --> 00:29:09.411
[Ben]: Yeah.

00:29:12.455 --> 00:29:14.258
So I guess

00:29:15.588 --> 00:29:17.651
One of the things that I most appreciate about

00:29:17.971 --> 00:29:20.054
software in general, and specifically personal

00:29:20.094 --> 00:29:21.676
software, like personal scale software that's

00:29:21.716 --> 00:29:25.421
been written by an amount of people that you

00:29:25.441 --> 00:29:27.283
could fit into a room to have a conversation

00:29:27.323 --> 00:29:27.583
about it.

00:29:28.665 --> 00:29:30.167
One of the things that I most appreciate about

00:29:30.187 --> 00:29:33.271
that is that almost all software written that way

00:29:33.291 --> 00:29:37.035
is fundamentally a diary about the way that a

00:29:37.095 --> 00:29:39.258
person learned how to solve a set of problems

00:29:39.278 --> 00:29:41.121
that they might not have known about when they

00:29:41.161 --> 00:29:42.042
decided to at the beginning.

00:29:42.963 --> 00:29:45.426
It's this fascinating process of

00:29:45.743 --> 00:29:49.011
Tracking somebody's voyage through the problem

00:29:49.071 --> 00:29:52.921
landscape as they discover other people who have

00:29:53.963 --> 00:29:56.630
touched on topics that are tangential to the

00:29:56.650 --> 00:30:01.542
problem being solved by that software package.

00:30:02.129 --> 00:30:05.796
It's such a personal and fascinating experience

00:30:05.896 --> 00:30:09.082
to see somebody go from, I know just enough about

00:30:09.142 --> 00:30:10.625
a problem to be able to decide that I want to

00:30:10.825 --> 00:30:13.350
build the machine that works on it, to I have

00:30:13.370 --> 00:30:15.474
this deeper understanding of how the problem

00:30:15.594 --> 00:30:18.038
actually exists in the broader set of things that

00:30:18.058 --> 00:30:18.940
people care about.

00:30:20.202 --> 00:30:22.487
...oriented along the axis of what machinery can

00:30:22.527 --> 00:30:25.012
do to help solve parts of that problem.

00:30:25.032 --> 00:30:29.061
And like the commit logs for a program are like

00:30:29.101 --> 00:30:32.068
just this, it's like a map through that territory.

00:30:32.108 --> 00:30:34.633
It's wonderful to read, but it's also like...

00:30:36.048 --> 00:30:37.690
It gives you a lot of insight into the person

00:30:37.730 --> 00:30:38.771
doing the navigation.

00:30:39.252 --> 00:30:42.596
When you see 16 commits on December 24th of 2023,

00:30:42.636 --> 00:30:45.940
like, oh, okay, that person probably had a little

00:30:45.980 --> 00:30:46.721
bit of time to work on it.

00:30:47.322 --> 00:30:49.044
And then when you see a bunch of commits that are

00:30:49.084 --> 00:30:50.106
like 5 p.m.

00:30:50.166 --> 00:30:51.668
Monday to Friday, like, oh, okay, this is

00:30:51.708 --> 00:30:54.331
probably done in a particular way.

00:30:54.391 --> 00:30:57.435
But yeah, it's this deeply personal process of

00:30:57.515 --> 00:30:59.497
seeing how problems are learned about.

00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.102
And I just really appreciate that.

00:31:04.347 --> 00:31:05.409
[Sacha]: I think what you're saying about

00:31:05.669 --> 00:31:08.614
personal scale software and kind of getting a

00:31:08.654 --> 00:31:11.619
sense of people's journey as they learn to

00:31:11.659 --> 00:31:14.063
understand a problem and as they start to

00:31:14.123 --> 00:31:16.326
prototype a solution because you never quite come

00:31:16.366 --> 00:31:18.169
across the right solution the first time around.

00:31:18.690 --> 00:31:19.672
You're figuring things out.

00:31:19.712 --> 00:31:21.214
You're borrowing things from other people.

00:31:21.775 --> 00:31:24.139
I think that will resonate a lot with lots of

00:31:24.159 --> 00:31:26.523
people in the Emacs community because Emacs use

00:31:26.583 --> 00:31:28.646
is so personal as you mentioned when you were

00:31:28.686 --> 00:31:29.848
looking at the Slack channel.

00:31:31.533 --> 00:31:34.277
I was wondering, in your personal practice, as

00:31:34.317 --> 00:31:36.380
you figure things out, what kinds of things help

00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:36.580
you?

00:31:36.660 --> 00:31:39.684
Is it mostly a matter of actually sitting down

00:31:39.704 --> 00:31:42.248
and taking the time to write the literate

00:31:42.368 --> 00:31:45.773
programming stuff around the code blocks or the

00:31:45.793 --> 00:31:46.554
commit messages?

00:31:46.654 --> 00:31:48.877
Or are there other tools or techniques that help

00:31:48.897 --> 00:31:49.558
you do that?

00:31:50.753 --> 00:31:53.636
Are there tools or techniques that help me write

00:31:53.676 --> 00:31:56.619
down your journey along the way as you think

00:31:56.659 --> 00:31:57.019
about the code?

00:31:57.039 --> 00:31:57.840
What's your practice?

00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:00.643
For example, when you come across something that

00:32:00.723 --> 00:32:03.126
you want to figure out, how do you go about doing

00:32:03.226 --> 00:32:03.306
it?

00:32:04.848 --> 00:32:08.772
[Ben]: So it depends on how I'm

00:32:08.812 --> 00:32:09.592
approaching the project.

00:32:10.033 --> 00:32:12.135
So one of the neat things about software is that

00:32:12.155 --> 00:32:13.877
it's a document and a device at the same time.

00:32:14.077 --> 00:32:16.279
So you can care about it because of the thing

00:32:16.299 --> 00:32:17.881
that it does, or you can care about it because of

00:32:18.341 --> 00:32:19.883
the information that it captures.

00:32:19.863 --> 00:32:22.748
And if I'm digging into a program because it does

00:32:22.788 --> 00:32:25.132
a thing that I want to learn, then I'll pay

00:32:25.172 --> 00:32:28.118
attention to the device aspect of it.

00:32:28.138 --> 00:32:29.740
And that usually means that I'll start with its

00:32:29.801 --> 00:32:30.622
own documentation.

00:32:30.642 --> 00:32:32.045
So if it has a man page, I'll read that.

00:32:32.065 --> 00:32:33.427
If it has user docs, I'll read those.

00:32:34.208 --> 00:32:37.414
And usually I'll start keeping notes in an Org

00:32:37.434 --> 00:32:40.019
Mode file because it's easy to hyperlink back to

00:32:40.099 --> 00:32:43.485
it and add my own annotations in parallel to the

00:32:43.545 --> 00:32:44.807
actual authoritative source.

00:32:45.580 --> 00:32:49.425
If I'm reading software primarily as a document,

00:32:49.445 --> 00:32:51.888
then I'll start by reading the source code and

00:32:51.989 --> 00:32:54.512
the commit logs, usually the most recent ones,

00:32:54.812 --> 00:32:56.334
and then I'll jump back to the beginning of the

00:32:56.374 --> 00:32:58.417
project and read upwards at the beginning, and

00:32:58.457 --> 00:33:01.321
then fill in the blanks iteratively if it's a

00:33:01.381 --> 00:33:03.965
project that's small enough or has little enough

00:33:04.005 --> 00:33:05.627
history that I can do that.

00:33:05.727 --> 00:33:08.391
And again, I'll usually start an Org Mode file

00:33:08.431 --> 00:33:11.735
specific to that particular exploration that will

00:33:12.516 --> 00:33:14.018
let me organize my notes as I go.

00:33:15.061 --> 00:33:20.828
I really do rely on the external brain that I can

00:33:20.909 --> 00:33:25.414
keep in an Org Mode file.

00:33:27.637 --> 00:33:32.043
I tend to have a pretty decent long-term memory,

00:33:32.063 --> 00:33:33.845
but being able to bridge the gap between

00:33:34.586 --> 00:33:36.409
short-term memory and long-term memory is super,

00:33:36.429 --> 00:33:37.089
super useful.

00:33:37.109 --> 00:33:40.193
So leaving myself hints that let me dredge things

00:33:40.294 --> 00:33:42.216
back out of long-term.

00:33:42.466 --> 00:33:44.589
Reloaded into the hot cache of short term really,

00:33:44.669 --> 00:33:48.395
really helps out because that lets me maintain

00:33:48.435 --> 00:33:50.418
that flow state or get back into that flow state

00:33:50.458 --> 00:33:53.583
when you've got like the whole program, all the

00:33:53.623 --> 00:33:56.127
context that you've absorbed up until now and the

00:33:56.227 --> 00:33:57.890
ideas of like the areas that you want to

00:33:57.950 --> 00:33:58.411
investigate.

00:33:58.811 --> 00:34:00.935
Being able to hot reload all of that and then

00:34:00.975 --> 00:34:02.557
pick up where I left off is super useful.

00:34:03.659 --> 00:34:04.841
But the meat brain can't do it.

00:34:05.362 --> 00:34:06.904
I need the machine brain too.

NOTE vc-git-grep for finding notes again

00:34:07.728 --> 00:34:09.592
[Sacha]: Tell me about this dredging up

00:34:09.632 --> 00:34:10.194
process.

00:34:10.455 --> 00:34:14.304
Are you a lots of little files person?

00:34:14.446 --> 00:34:17.514
Are you a couple of large files?

00:34:17.554 --> 00:34:18.616
Are you a project file?

00:34:18.956 --> 00:34:21.203
There's an Org file in each project that you look

00:34:21.304 --> 00:34:21.685
up.

00:34:21.705 --> 00:34:23.168
How do you find things, especially if you don't

00:34:23.268 --> 00:34:24.572
remember the exact words?

00:34:26.088 --> 00:34:29.610
[Ben]: So it's usually like an Org Mode

00:34:29.630 --> 00:34:34.054
per category and they get consolidated.

00:34:35.897 --> 00:34:37.739
Let me shrink this down a little bit.

00:34:37.759 --> 00:34:40.581
So usually it's an Org Mode category per file.

00:34:41.181 --> 00:34:45.465
If there's something super specific, then usually

00:34:45.505 --> 00:34:48.869
it'll kind of live out in its own place until I

00:34:48.909 --> 00:34:52.312
get around to... I love that you have an Org File

00:34:52.371 --> 00:34:53.833
specifically for Mud Cake.

00:34:54.757 --> 00:34:55.498
But that's the thing.

00:34:55.699 --> 00:34:57.964
It'll live off in its own thing until it gets

00:34:58.064 --> 00:35:04.236
integrated into the list where the long-term

00:35:04.276 --> 00:35:05.439
stuff lives.

00:35:05.459 --> 00:35:10.528
So, for example, I promise this is pertinent to

00:35:10.548 --> 00:35:11.250
your actual question.

00:35:11.651 --> 00:35:12.953
[Sacha]: No, no, this is very pertinent.

00:35:13.895 --> 00:35:16.898
[Ben]: But so like usually lots of little

00:35:16.958 --> 00:35:18.900
files while I'm still working on something and

00:35:18.980 --> 00:35:23.043
then as that something becomes part of my larger

00:35:23.083 --> 00:35:24.645
life and has links to other things then it'll

00:35:24.665 --> 00:35:27.287
kind of get centralized into one of the Org Mode

00:35:27.307 --> 00:35:32.952
files that has a broader topic purpose basically.

00:35:32.972 --> 00:35:35.795
[Sacha]: Okay and then if you if it's like

00:35:35.855 --> 00:35:39.058
very long term and you can't remember the exact

00:35:39.158 --> 00:35:41.500
rates to find something how do you generally find

00:35:42.621 --> 00:35:43.362
find your notes?

00:35:47.459 --> 00:35:47.900
[Ben]: That way.

00:35:48.461 --> 00:35:48.822
[Sacha]: All right.

00:35:49.222 --> 00:35:51.327
You start graphing various keywords and try to

00:35:51.367 --> 00:35:51.687
find it.

00:35:52.349 --> 00:35:52.649
[Ben]: Yeah.

00:35:53.030 --> 00:35:55.234
So one of the things that I don't yet have turned

00:35:55.334 --> 00:35:57.238
on, and actually you inspired me to look into

00:35:57.278 --> 00:36:01.707
this, was so... Actually, do we have enough time?

00:36:01.727 --> 00:36:01.987
Yeah, okay.

00:36:02.008 --> 00:36:03.811
So I'm just looking at the clock.

00:36:03.831 --> 00:36:05.514
One of the things that I wanted to get into was

00:36:06.336 --> 00:36:08.861
long-term searching and searchability.

00:36:09.242 --> 00:36:09.923
Yeah.

00:36:09.903 --> 00:36:13.189
So I use SQLite's indexing for a lot of things,

00:36:13.970 --> 00:36:15.693
and I really appreciate its Porter stemming

00:36:16.154 --> 00:36:19.500
because it lets you search for stemmed words,

00:36:19.961 --> 00:36:22.486
which are kind of approximate matches, which is

00:36:22.586 --> 00:36:27.034
useful, but less useful than vector databases.

00:36:27.149 --> 00:36:30.296
And you actually put a little bit of work into

00:36:31.178 --> 00:36:34.085
indexing topics based on vector similarity.

00:36:34.626 --> 00:36:35.869
[Sacha]: Which I haven't gotten back to, so

00:36:35.909 --> 00:36:37.613
I'm glad to see, you know, you managed to

00:36:37.653 --> 00:36:38.435
experiment with it.

00:36:38.936 --> 00:36:39.798
See what you come up with.

00:36:40.460 --> 00:36:42.104
[Ben]: So I don't have anything to show

00:36:42.264 --> 00:36:44.088
yet, except that it's an interesting topic

00:36:44.128 --> 00:36:45.732
because...

00:36:46.927 --> 00:36:49.230
Because I'm word-oriented, I will often remember

00:36:49.270 --> 00:36:51.293
individual keywords or I'll have enough patience

00:36:51.373 --> 00:36:53.756
that I can sift through a list of potential

00:36:53.796 --> 00:36:55.178
keywords as I'm grepping for stuff.

00:36:55.979 --> 00:37:00.225
And if I find that my first three or four

00:37:00.445 --> 00:37:02.187
attempts at searching for a keyword don't find

00:37:02.228 --> 00:37:03.970
the topic that I'm looking for, once I do

00:37:04.010 --> 00:37:05.732
eventually dig up the topic, I will add those

00:37:05.792 --> 00:37:07.715
keywords that I was searching for just so I can

00:37:07.755 --> 00:37:10.338
find it next time, expecting that future me will

00:37:10.358 --> 00:37:13.002
probably behave more or less like current me.

00:37:14.298 --> 00:37:15.981
But yeah, like being able to use a vector

00:37:16.001 --> 00:37:19.626
database to search for headings that include

00:37:19.687 --> 00:37:21.990
related topics instead of related words.

00:37:22.872 --> 00:37:23.733
I'd really like to get there.

00:37:23.833 --> 00:37:24.694
I'm not there yet.

00:37:24.755 --> 00:37:26.517
And I think that's going to be interesting and

00:37:26.618 --> 00:37:26.898
useful.

00:37:27.579 --> 00:37:29.242
I also think it's going to be challenging to kind

00:37:29.282 --> 00:37:31.345
of represent Org modes.

00:37:31.460 --> 00:37:36.871
hierarchical structure to restrict the training

00:37:36.911 --> 00:37:39.136
of particular vector sets to be able to find like

00:37:39.496 --> 00:37:41.921
an increasingly or cast an increasingly wide net

00:37:42.242 --> 00:37:43.925
for where I want the searches to run.

00:37:44.547 --> 00:37:45.749
So I don't know how that's going to be solved

00:37:45.789 --> 00:37:47.713
yet, but I'm going to be looking into it.

NOTE Keybindings and terminals; wezterm

00:37:47.997 --> 00:37:51.202
[Sacha]: Percopop has a question regarding

00:37:51.222 --> 00:37:52.283
terminal Emacs.

00:37:52.343 --> 00:37:54.507
Do you need to change any of the keybindings to

00:37:54.567 --> 00:37:57.010
avoid clashes with the terminal?

00:37:57.050 --> 00:37:59.113
You know, some keybindings don't work on

00:37:59.154 --> 00:38:01.777
terminals, or some terminals already have these

00:38:02.218 --> 00:38:03.159
keybindings set.

00:38:04.201 --> 00:38:07.506
[Ben]: Yeah, so I have good news and bad

00:38:07.546 --> 00:38:07.846
news there.

00:38:08.287 --> 00:38:10.751
The good news is that, so one of the terminals

00:38:10.771 --> 00:38:13.034
that I'm using right now on most of my systems is

00:38:13.094 --> 00:38:15.017
Westerm.

00:38:15.723 --> 00:38:17.590
It's really good.

00:38:17.610 --> 00:38:19.657
I started off with Alacrity and I kind of bounced

00:38:19.697 --> 00:38:22.367
off that project because of some of the behavior

00:38:22.407 --> 00:38:23.210
of the lead developers.

00:38:23.592 --> 00:38:25.759
I won't get too deep into it, but what I found is

00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:27.606
that Westerm

00:38:28.598 --> 00:38:31.262
It gives me very little friction that way.

00:38:31.282 --> 00:38:33.946
It doesn't have a lot of its own key bindings on

00:38:34.007 --> 00:38:35.970
its own, and that's a relief.

00:38:36.450 --> 00:38:38.594
It means that I really don't have to... I don't

00:38:38.614 --> 00:38:41.679
think I've had to put any time into customizing

00:38:41.719 --> 00:38:46.326
Western to get out of the way of Emacs or Screen.

00:38:46.346 --> 00:38:48.129
And I should mention, I am running Emacs within

00:38:48.149 --> 00:38:49.611
Screen.

00:38:49.591 --> 00:38:51.034
So that introduces another layer.

00:38:51.495 --> 00:38:54.000
Control-A-A, for example, is beginning of line

00:38:54.040 --> 00:38:57.647
for me, even though Control-A itself is the

00:38:57.667 --> 00:38:58.889
default Emacs keybinding.

00:38:59.270 --> 00:39:02.877
But yeah, I think that I ended up choosing

00:39:02.897 --> 00:39:07.987
terminal software specifically on that merit, so

00:39:08.027 --> 00:39:09.310
that it doesn't get in the way.

00:39:09.330 --> 00:39:10.973
That's actually one of the things that Termux

00:39:11.233 --> 00:39:12.055
is...

00:39:12.237 --> 00:39:16.523
The default Google keyboard keeps stealing key

00:39:16.543 --> 00:39:16.884
bindings.

00:39:18.346 --> 00:39:20.609
It'll update and all of a sudden I can't use a

00:39:20.650 --> 00:39:24.756
particular alt key combination anymore because

00:39:25.316 --> 00:39:29.082
now it invokes a Google keyboard shortcut for

00:39:30.544 --> 00:39:34.090
pulling things out of the Android clipboard, for

00:39:34.150 --> 00:39:37.755
example, which is really kind of annoying.

00:39:37.735 --> 00:39:40.478
But yeah, in terms of terminals on full-fledged

00:39:40.498 --> 00:39:43.682
machines, I generally don't have that particular

00:39:43.722 --> 00:39:43.982
problem.

00:39:45.003 --> 00:39:50.289
Except for... What was the name of it?

00:39:50.509 --> 00:40:01.041
It was... It was a zap-to on-the-screen package

00:40:01.722 --> 00:40:04.906
that alphapapa wrote, I believe, that I...

00:40:04.926 --> 00:40:05.987
Actually, let me just look it up.

00:40:11.823 --> 00:40:12.504
Yeah, Avy.

00:40:13.265 --> 00:40:13.566
[Sacha]: Oh yeah?

00:40:14.287 --> 00:40:15.849
[Ben]: So I wanted to start picking this

00:40:15.909 --> 00:40:21.979
up in 2021, and yeah, control colon doesn't work

00:40:22.139 --> 00:40:22.980
in terminals.

00:40:23.080 --> 00:40:28.068
So the mode itself is fantastic, and when I'm

00:40:28.168 --> 00:40:31.012
using it in a GUI Emacs, it's very useful, and I

00:40:32.034 --> 00:40:33.977
rarely use it now specifically because of that

00:40:34.017 --> 00:40:35.299
particular terminal problem.

00:40:35.414 --> 00:40:37.076
That is self-inflicted.

00:40:37.096 --> 00:40:38.237
That is not a problem with the package.

00:40:38.257 --> 00:40:40.179
That is a me problem.

00:40:40.500 --> 00:40:45.085
But yeah, I think this is the notable one that I

00:40:45.125 --> 00:40:45.666
bounced off of.

00:40:46.286 --> 00:40:47.568
[Sacha]: Yeah, just trying to find the

00:40:47.628 --> 00:40:49.931
right, you know, a key binding that will pass.

00:40:50.531 --> 00:40:52.433
Because you can't get used to key binding in one

00:40:52.473 --> 00:40:54.276
system and then not have it available in other

00:40:54.316 --> 00:40:54.716
systems.

00:40:54.736 --> 00:40:55.857
It's just going to mess with your brain.

00:40:56.438 --> 00:40:59.181
So yeah, Ray points out, yeah, Google steals

00:40:59.221 --> 00:41:01.304
Control Shift K, which he uses to kill tabs to

00:41:01.324 --> 00:41:01.604
the right.

00:41:01.624 --> 00:41:02.285
So it's like, oh.

00:41:03.226 --> 00:41:04.307
[Ben]: Infuriating.

00:41:04.777 --> 00:41:05.418
[Sacha]: Yeah, yeah.

00:41:05.438 --> 00:41:08.866
And of course, none of the standard keyboards

00:41:08.926 --> 00:41:12.493
have a super key on the thing, so you can't just

00:41:12.674 --> 00:41:14.898
tack on another modifier that'll get through.

00:41:14.938 --> 00:41:16.702
[Ben]: That's actually one of the reasons

00:41:16.722 --> 00:41:18.606
that I picked up this particular keyboard is

00:41:18.887 --> 00:41:20.490
Brian Carlson.

00:41:20.858 --> 00:41:21.799
Another Torontonian.

00:41:22.020 --> 00:41:23.722
He works on Git LFS and some other stuff.

00:41:24.182 --> 00:41:25.965
He was specifically looking for a keyboard that

00:41:26.065 --> 00:41:28.208
had a super key that he could remap.

00:41:28.248 --> 00:41:31.793
So four keys to the right of space, which this

00:41:31.913 --> 00:41:32.293
one has.

00:41:32.754 --> 00:41:35.357
And because it's ZMK, it's remappable.

00:41:35.738 --> 00:41:37.360
I think this might be suitable for his purpose,

00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:40.945
except that he wants a QMK keyboard, specifically

00:41:40.985 --> 00:41:43.548
because the development tools for QMK are

00:41:43.568 --> 00:41:46.032
packaged in W, and that's a plus for him.

00:41:46.052 --> 00:41:47.133
Anyhow, yes, I agree.

00:41:47.433 --> 00:41:49.376
Like, not having a super and a hyper key on a

00:41:49.396 --> 00:41:50.157
keyboard

00:41:50.592 --> 00:41:53.362
[Sacha]: feels like like one of your fingers

00:41:53.382 --> 00:41:58.078
that are cramped up we need more modifiers well I

00:41:58.098 --> 00:41:59.623
mean you know pipe organ

00:42:04.531 --> 00:42:05.453
Tell us about that.

00:42:05.473 --> 00:42:06.194
[Ben]: What is this?

00:42:06.234 --> 00:42:08.098
Oh yeah, foot pedals.

00:42:08.839 --> 00:42:11.805
Yeah, and I actually do have these wired into a

00:42:11.845 --> 00:42:16.034
little Atmel microcontroller running QMK.

00:42:16.555 --> 00:42:18.298
I honestly tried the foot pedal thing for a

00:42:18.338 --> 00:42:18.759
little while.

00:42:19.060 --> 00:42:20.663
It was hilarious.

00:42:20.683 --> 00:42:21.865
I did not find it useful.

00:42:24.157 --> 00:42:25.499
[Sacha]: I don't have the hand-eye-foot

00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:28.163
coordination to do that thing at the same time.

00:42:28.844 --> 00:42:30.226
[Ben]: Maybe if I had learned piano as a

00:42:30.246 --> 00:42:31.608
kid, it would have been good.

00:42:31.708 --> 00:42:33.611
But yeah, I don't seem to be able to do it.

00:42:34.012 --> 00:42:38.759
But I gave it the old college try and it was fun.

NOTE Timers: tea-timer, tmr

00:42:38.779 --> 00:42:39.861
[Sacha]: Okay, I had a couple of things I

00:42:40.061 --> 00:42:42.124
wanted to ask about in your config.

00:42:42.144 --> 00:42:43.606
You have two types of timers.

00:42:44.588 --> 00:42:46.992
You have tea-timer and you have Prot's TMR.

00:42:47.733 --> 00:42:49.315
Do you use them for different purposes?

00:42:49.656 --> 00:42:50.637
What's going on here?

00:42:50.870 --> 00:42:52.352
[Ben]: So I'm trying them out.

00:42:52.492 --> 00:42:54.295
I tried TTimer first because it was the first one

00:42:54.315 --> 00:42:56.137
that I found, and it was useful.

00:42:57.579 --> 00:42:59.883
I was actually using it in meetings because I

00:42:59.903 --> 00:43:02.026
would, when I was trying to keep us on topic, I

00:43:02.066 --> 00:43:04.069
would use that to remind us that, oh, we've got

00:43:04.109 --> 00:43:05.270
four other topics we need to get through.

00:43:05.290 --> 00:43:06.552
We're trying to give this one five minutes.

00:43:06.632 --> 00:43:08.094
We're running up on four.

00:43:08.114 --> 00:43:11.539
And it was just because it was super low overhead.

00:43:11.579 --> 00:43:13.141
It was easy to pick up.

00:43:13.221 --> 00:43:14.563
It was easy to have it displayed on my screen.

00:43:14.944 --> 00:43:17.147
And it didn't feel like I was...

00:43:17.127 --> 00:43:18.693
Running a chess timer on everyone.

00:43:18.754 --> 00:43:20.420
It's very subtle in the mode line.

00:43:20.461 --> 00:43:21.826
It was useful.

00:43:21.846 --> 00:43:24.758
But what I found was that when I was...

00:43:26.999 --> 00:43:28.763
Running multiple timers simultaneously.

00:43:28.823 --> 00:43:32.069
TMR, just the fact that you can list all the

00:43:32.089 --> 00:43:34.073
timers and manage them in a separate buffer.

00:43:34.133 --> 00:43:37.340
It's richer and I appreciated some of its

00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:38.121
documentation more.

00:43:38.582 --> 00:43:39.905
I haven't fully switched over to it yet.

00:43:40.286 --> 00:43:42.029
I'm still in exploratory mode.

00:43:42.049 --> 00:43:45.636
In fact, this is probably like... So I actually

00:43:45.677 --> 00:43:48.061
have a bunch more packages installed than I'm

00:43:48.121 --> 00:43:48.923
currently using.

00:43:51.333 --> 00:43:54.607
So I'm going to shrink this down a little bit

00:43:54.667 --> 00:43:57.178
just so that it doesn't line wrap.

NOTE Different stages of package use

00:43:57.198 --> 00:44:01.697
But yeah, so I've got, I think about 140 packages

00:44:02.943 --> 00:44:02.942
locally cloned.

00:44:02.943 --> 00:44:02.942
I've got, as you can see in my init,

00:44:02.943 --> 00:44:02.942
about half of that actually installed.

00:44:02.943 --> 00:44:12.900
There are various phases. I've got a clone, but I don't

00:44:12.901 --> 00:44:16.200
have it in my init. Or I have it in my init, but

00:44:16.201 --> 00:44:17.267
there's another package that offers

00:44:17.268 --> 00:44:20.300
similar functionality. Or I'm all-in on this particular

00:44:20.301 --> 00:44:22.067
choice and I'm removing the other ones.

00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:28.174
It's a gradual kind of progression.

00:44:28.154 --> 00:44:29.796
[Sacha]: Yeah, we're all auditioning

00:44:30.616 --> 00:44:33.859
packages to see if they fit in our workflow and

00:44:33.919 --> 00:44:34.540
all that stuff.

00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:36.902
I was curious also about your elfeed things.

00:44:37.923 --> 00:44:39.945
You have a few things related to elfeed.

00:44:39.965 --> 00:44:41.346
Actually, do you want to talk about the thing you

00:44:41.386 --> 00:44:42.127
just highlighted first?

00:44:43.268 --> 00:44:44.249
[Ben]: No, we'll get back to it in a sec.

00:44:44.930 --> 00:44:46.071
I'm keeping an eye on the clock.

00:44:46.391 --> 00:44:47.652
[Sacha]: But yeah, elfeed.

NOTE Elfeed

00:44:47.672 --> 00:44:49.134
Yeah, you've got a couple of interesting things

00:44:49.214 --> 00:44:51.796
in your elfeed setup, including picking a search

00:44:51.876 --> 00:44:55.039
from a bookmark or other shortcuts like that.

00:44:55.222 --> 00:44:57.746
[Ben]: So I have discovered in my

00:44:57.786 --> 00:44:59.629
conversations with the new maintainers for elfeed

00:44:59.689 --> 00:45:06.239
that my elfeed habits are very deviant.

00:45:08.703 --> 00:45:14.853
So let me actually start off by going through...

00:45:23.842 --> 00:45:29.069
You can see that like the top of my elfeed list is

00:45:29.269 --> 00:45:31.392
kind of in one format and down at the bottom, the

00:45:31.492 --> 00:45:34.797
ones that are closer to present day are organized

00:45:34.817 --> 00:45:35.357
in a different way.

00:45:36.138 --> 00:45:37.060
[Sacha]: You've got tags now.

00:45:38.061 --> 00:45:40.744
[Ben]: So my feed list is, I mean, it

00:45:40.764 --> 00:45:42.447
started in Google Reader.

00:45:42.807 --> 00:45:44.289
It's kind of been forward ported since then.

00:45:46.312 --> 00:45:48.735
It's long.

00:45:51.584 --> 00:45:52.507
[Sacha]: I love the comments.

00:45:55.417 --> 00:45:56.381
[Ben]: But one of the consequences of

00:45:56.421 --> 00:45:57.826
having a long feed list is that I have an

00:45:57.946 --> 00:46:01.037
enormous elfeed database.

00:46:01.439 --> 00:46:03.121
And I use it for completely different purposes.

00:46:04.002 --> 00:46:07.186
So for example, I'm going to show off that little

00:46:09.068 --> 00:46:09.689
default search.

00:46:17.560 --> 00:46:20.833
I keep an eye on projects that have releases

00:46:20.834 --> 00:46:23.124
that aren't packaged by Debian, for example.

00:46:23.224 --> 00:46:26.468
So I've got this little ATS Mini.

00:46:29.300 --> 00:46:32.925
basically a small AM FM radio that happens to run

00:46:33.205 --> 00:46:36.409
on ESP32 and the firmware for this community

00:46:36.649 --> 00:46:39.113
developed and it's kind of interesting but like

00:46:39.133 --> 00:46:41.015
that's not packaged by Debian so I pay attention

00:46:41.075 --> 00:46:43.358
to or I subscribe to the release feed for that

00:46:43.398 --> 00:46:45.020
particular project.

00:46:46.542 --> 00:46:49.626
I do keep in keep an eye on the Linux kernel

00:46:49.666 --> 00:46:52.810
especially these days because

00:46:53.397 --> 00:46:56.483
The gallop of security vulnerabilities coming out

00:46:56.503 --> 00:46:58.346
of mythos analyses right now means that I have to

00:46:58.366 --> 00:47:00.711
pay more attention than usual to fresh updates.

00:47:01.192 --> 00:47:04.197
So generally I run Debian stable, but I do run

00:47:04.237 --> 00:47:06.041
kernels from backports and I want to know when

00:47:06.061 --> 00:47:07.744
those are available.

00:47:07.927 --> 00:47:09.108
MeshTastic.

00:47:09.129 --> 00:47:10.731
I was paying more attention to this a couple of

00:47:10.831 --> 00:47:11.431
weeks ago.

00:47:12.112 --> 00:47:12.993
I'm not going to reach that right now.

00:47:13.514 --> 00:47:16.778
But yeah, the local MeshTastic community in

00:47:16.798 --> 00:47:19.501
Toronto is plagued by a couple of griefers that

00:47:19.742 --> 00:47:20.703
make it a lot less fun.

00:47:20.783 --> 00:47:22.365
So I'm paying a bit less attention to that right

00:47:22.405 --> 00:47:22.525
now.

00:47:23.306 --> 00:47:25.189
But yeah, so like one of the bookmarks that I

00:47:25.249 --> 00:47:27.291
have is software currency.

00:47:27.311 --> 00:47:29.414
Another one is, for example, the YouTube channels

00:47:29.434 --> 00:47:31.116
that I subscribe to.

00:47:31.096 --> 00:47:33.442
Thank goodness for Elf YouTube.

00:47:34.424 --> 00:47:37.432
It is so nice to be able to get the transcripts

00:47:38.054 --> 00:47:39.898
for things directly in there.

00:47:41.462 --> 00:47:43.006
[Sacha]: There's even a sponsor block

00:47:43.066 --> 00:47:46.114
integration so you can skip all the promotions

00:47:46.134 --> 00:47:46.455
and stuff.

00:47:47.026 --> 00:47:50.430
[Ben]: Yeah, I mean, so again, my use of

00:47:50.811 --> 00:47:53.935
YouTube is also deviant in that I pretty much

00:47:54.015 --> 00:47:56.838
strictly subscribe to RSS feeds and they're

00:47:56.878 --> 00:47:58.501
downloaded onto the file server.

00:47:59.442 --> 00:48:01.544
So when a new recording comes out, it gets

00:48:01.584 --> 00:48:02.005
dropped there.

00:48:02.105 --> 00:48:02.666
I'll watch it.

00:48:03.527 --> 00:48:06.651
And then I've got a little widget that scans

00:48:06.711 --> 00:48:08.693
through my Kodi database for watched files.

00:48:09.294 --> 00:48:11.477
Once YouTube files show up in the watch list,

00:48:11.497 --> 00:48:13.860
they're automatically purged.

00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:16.403
And it means I just never see an ad.

00:48:17.184 --> 00:48:21.109
It's not just satisfying.

00:48:21.169 --> 00:48:22.591
I don't think that I would be able to pay

00:48:22.631 --> 00:48:24.533
attention if I was being constantly interrupted

00:48:24.573 --> 00:48:25.655
because of the way that my brain works.

00:48:27.076 --> 00:48:31.121
But yeah, so being able to quickly search for

00:48:31.141 --> 00:48:36.248
YouTube is one thing.

00:48:36.308 --> 00:48:38.110
I do have...

00:48:38.090 --> 00:48:40.434
articles that I've marked as spoilers for media

00:48:40.454 --> 00:48:42.317
that I haven't watched or read yet.

00:48:43.880 --> 00:48:47.806
Maybe I go to an extreme degree, but I'll try to

00:48:47.846 --> 00:48:49.729
avoid previews for new movies, for example.

00:48:50.350 --> 00:48:53.015
But I do want to actually go back to them later

00:48:53.135 --> 00:48:55.018
on.

00:48:55.690 --> 00:48:58.353
Marking articles as having spoilers that I want

00:48:58.373 --> 00:49:02.338
to revisit later on is an easy way of not having

00:49:02.358 --> 00:49:03.199
to worry about it anymore.

00:49:03.660 --> 00:49:07.064
And for a while, back in the days when I was

00:49:07.364 --> 00:49:12.991
paying more attention to... Enter the Dragon was

00:49:13.051 --> 00:49:17.597
the sequel to... What was that TV show?

00:49:19.062 --> 00:49:20.187
The George R.R.

00:49:20.207 --> 00:49:23.883
Martin seven seasons and it went badly off the

00:49:23.924 --> 00:49:24.868
rails in season six.

00:49:24.888 --> 00:49:25.832
[Sacha]: Game of Thrones.

00:49:25.913 --> 00:49:26.935
[Ben]: Thank you.

00:49:26.955 --> 00:49:29.118
So when I was watching that for a while, several

00:49:29.138 --> 00:49:31.441
of the sites that I was reading would have

00:49:31.762 --> 00:49:33.945
individual episode updates.

00:49:34.326 --> 00:49:37.170
And I really appreciated having a list of Elfie

00:49:37.250 --> 00:49:39.293
keywords that I could automatically apply those

00:49:39.334 --> 00:49:39.834
tags to.

00:49:40.315 --> 00:49:42.178
So I wouldn't even see the headlines because it

00:49:42.198 --> 00:49:44.181
was problematic enough.

00:49:44.201 --> 00:49:46.785
I've become less... Nice.

00:49:46.805 --> 00:49:48.227
Yeah, I've been putting less effort into

00:49:48.267 --> 00:49:51.412
maintaining that now, but the infrastructure is

00:49:51.432 --> 00:49:53.355
still there and I can lean on it if I need to.

00:49:53.605 --> 00:49:55.507
One of the things that I don't have set up right

00:49:55.547 --> 00:50:03.255
now is a quick search for the municipal topics

00:50:03.275 --> 00:50:03.775
that I cover.

00:50:04.836 --> 00:50:09.401
So I tend to subscribe to a lot of news because I

00:50:09.461 --> 00:50:14.526
found that, for example, it's interesting to see

00:50:14.666 --> 00:50:16.588
how the Toronto Star covers stuff differently

00:50:16.688 --> 00:50:17.910
from other local newspapers.

00:50:18.650 --> 00:50:23.275
And it's useful to be able to quickly pull up

00:50:24.335 --> 00:50:28.361
You know, the five or six publications that cover

00:50:28.761 --> 00:50:31.686
news in the same way and then look through the

00:50:31.706 --> 00:50:33.689
annotations for them or add the annotations

00:50:33.909 --> 00:50:36.072
myself so I can see that this particular story

00:50:36.112 --> 00:50:38.355
was covered by this journalist in this

00:50:38.395 --> 00:50:41.019
publication in this way and then it lets me

00:50:41.059 --> 00:50:43.643
cross-reference so that I can pay attention to

00:50:45.648 --> 00:50:49.298
Topics that are under-covered or publications

00:50:49.398 --> 00:50:52.526
that habitually leave out particular aspects of

00:50:52.587 --> 00:50:53.048
news stories.

00:50:54.732 --> 00:50:58.763
It lets me pay more attention to

00:51:00.380 --> 00:51:02.603
The trends of publications as well as to the

00:51:02.643 --> 00:51:03.444
stories that they're covering.

00:51:04.585 --> 00:51:07.168
But the consequence of that is that my LFE

00:51:07.208 --> 00:51:09.210
database is like four and a half gigs.

00:51:09.691 --> 00:51:12.074
And it's common for me, actually, I don't know if

00:51:12.094 --> 00:51:12.795
that actually shows.

00:51:13.335 --> 00:51:15.878
It's common for me to have like 65,000 articles

00:51:17.140 --> 00:51:19.222
in like the six month horizon for the default LFE

00:51:19.242 --> 00:51:19.643
searches.

00:51:20.584 --> 00:51:23.227
And that means that searches and redraws are

00:51:23.287 --> 00:51:25.570
expensive, even on a relatively performant

00:51:25.630 --> 00:51:26.691
machine.

00:51:26.671 --> 00:51:29.496
So you've probably seen some of the workarounds

00:51:29.516 --> 00:51:30.037
that I've got.

00:51:30.257 --> 00:51:34.705
And this little bookmark selector is one of those

00:51:34.745 --> 00:51:35.205
workarounds.

00:51:35.686 --> 00:51:38.391
So L feeds interactive search, super, super

00:51:38.411 --> 00:51:38.711
useful.

00:51:39.292 --> 00:51:41.456
But if you're trying to do it like this,

00:51:41.877 --> 00:51:45.162
actually, it's not so bad.

00:51:49.109 --> 00:51:49.570
[Sacha]: I love this.

00:51:49.590 --> 00:51:51.413
This is like, yeah.

00:51:51.950 --> 00:51:54.793
When you see someone using elfeed for like 65,000

00:51:54.873 --> 00:51:59.037
items, you get a sense of what you can be used

00:51:59.077 --> 00:52:01.319
for when you're really stressing it.

00:52:02.040 --> 00:52:02.720
[Ben]: Yeah.

00:52:02.740 --> 00:52:04.942
Well, and the organization of the bookmarks that

00:52:04.982 --> 00:52:08.766
I have means that I do have like one just river

00:52:08.826 --> 00:52:10.427
of news of all of the things that I want to pay

00:52:10.468 --> 00:52:10.968
attention to.

00:52:11.388 --> 00:52:14.011
But like it's seven or eight like pretty

00:52:14.611 --> 00:52:17.314
divergent topics with not a lot of overlap.

00:52:17.374 --> 00:52:19.476
So it's neat to be able to

00:52:19.456 --> 00:52:22.321
Think of elfeed as the thing where news

00:52:22.461 --> 00:52:24.625
information comes in, but the individual

00:52:24.665 --> 00:52:27.009
bookmarks are the topics that are grouped

00:52:27.049 --> 00:52:29.694
together that I actually care about and want to

00:52:29.734 --> 00:52:31.196
read about in concert with each other.

00:52:36.085 --> 00:52:41.434
If I specifically narrow it down to just Emacs

00:52:41.454 --> 00:52:44.940
stuff, one of the things that I can easily do is

00:52:47.620 --> 00:52:50.046
I had a bookmark for that search and if I name it.

00:52:54.377 --> 00:53:00.051
So now that I've got that bookmark saved.

00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:04.482
[Sacha]: And then it's like bookmark

00:53:04.562 --> 00:53:05.224
annotation.

00:53:06.537 --> 00:53:09.521
right and like this is also it ends up in my dot

00:53:09.541 --> 00:53:12.705
file so as a git config as a as a git commit but

NOTE Bookmark naming conventions

00:53:13.206 --> 00:53:15.168
now that that bookmark exists simply because of

00:53:15.188 --> 00:53:18.953
the naming uh lfe search now it shows up in

00:53:18.993 --> 00:53:21.837
completion precisely this sort of stuff I I am

00:53:22.057 --> 00:53:24.680
under utilizing bookmarks I think but I like that

00:53:24.881 --> 00:53:27.905
I love this idea of using bookmarks with a naming

00:53:27.945 --> 00:53:30.168
convention and then writing Emacs list but take

00:53:30.208 --> 00:53:32.290
advantage of that naming convention to make that

00:53:32.811 --> 00:53:35.194
easy to jump to easy to use in other things

00:53:35.748 --> 00:53:36.931
[Ben]: Yeah, it means I don't really have,

00:53:37.012 --> 00:53:38.616
like, when I notice that there's a thing, I don't

00:53:38.677 --> 00:53:41.525
have, it diminishes the activation energy for

00:53:41.625 --> 00:53:43.049
building a new workflow.

00:53:43.069 --> 00:53:44.152
It means that I don't have to put a lot of

00:53:44.172 --> 00:53:44.654
thought into it.

00:53:44.754 --> 00:53:46.038
I can quickly do it.

00:53:46.118 --> 00:53:47.442
And if it turns out to not be useful, I can

00:53:47.482 --> 00:53:48.846
quickly get rid of it.

00:53:50.125 --> 00:53:50.646
[Sacha]: Very cool.

NOTE elfeed-curate for annotations

00:53:50.986 --> 00:53:52.609
I had one more thing that I wanted to ask you

00:53:52.629 --> 00:53:54.692
about elfeed that I want to squeeze in in the five

00:53:54.732 --> 00:53:56.234
minutes that I have before the kiddo comes out

00:53:56.254 --> 00:53:57.315
for lunch break.

00:53:57.395 --> 00:54:00.560
This elfeed curate that you're using, this is the

00:54:00.580 --> 00:54:02.082
first time I've come across it in the config.

00:54:02.843 --> 00:54:05.667
Are you sharing your notes or your selections

00:54:05.788 --> 00:54:07.871
with other people or just for yourself?

00:54:07.891 --> 00:54:08.031
[Ben]: No.

00:54:08.592 --> 00:54:10.254
So it's just for myself sometimes.

00:54:10.294 --> 00:54:12.497
So what I'm trying to replicate is back in Google

00:54:12.517 --> 00:54:14.841
Reader days, I really appreciated how when you

00:54:15.001 --> 00:54:17.284
added an annotation to an article that you were

00:54:17.324 --> 00:54:17.905
reading,

00:54:17.885 --> 00:54:21.172
By default, that annotation would be viewable by

00:54:21.593 --> 00:54:22.655
other people in your social graph.

00:54:22.715 --> 00:54:23.637
That was super interesting.

00:54:26.664 --> 00:54:29.329
Sometimes you could also add personal-only

00:54:29.389 --> 00:54:30.692
annotations.

00:54:31.093 --> 00:54:35.562
Actually, I don't think that's the keyword that

00:54:35.602 --> 00:54:36.685
it uses.

00:54:36.705 --> 00:54:37.767
I think it's just an.

00:54:39.248 --> 00:54:40.710
[Sacha]: Also, because you have an Emacs

00:54:40.770 --> 00:54:42.553
keyword on it, so I don't know whether you have

00:54:42.653 --> 00:54:45.257
any annotated Emacs ones.

00:54:45.277 --> 00:54:45.377
[Ben]: Yeah.

00:54:45.397 --> 00:54:48.061
Well, I mean, generally, if I've added an

00:54:48.101 --> 00:54:49.743
annotation, it will be.

00:54:49.763 --> 00:54:53.108
So, for example, here.

00:54:55.591 --> 00:54:55.772
Right?

00:54:56.433 --> 00:54:57.013
Super useful.

00:54:57.835 --> 00:54:58.976
Well, super useful for me, anyhow.

00:54:59.537 --> 00:55:01.860
If I find that there's an annotation that is

00:55:02.461 --> 00:55:03.703
more...

00:55:11.024 --> 00:55:14.589
This is inflammatory.

00:55:14.609 --> 00:55:15.971
It doesn't need to go out on the web.

00:55:16.171 --> 00:55:17.693
[Sacha]: Sorry, you need to kill the stream

00:55:17.713 --> 00:55:19.435
and have a 10-second video.

00:55:19.455 --> 00:55:20.196
[Ben]: No, it's all good.

00:55:21.899 --> 00:55:24.362
I'm not worried about sharing this, but it's not

00:55:24.402 --> 00:55:25.123
something I've posted.

00:55:25.223 --> 00:55:26.845
But what the nice thing is is that if it is

00:55:26.885 --> 00:55:28.487
something that I want to share, it's really,

00:55:28.507 --> 00:55:30.450
really easy to just drop this into master.mode.

00:55:30.751 --> 00:55:31.773
[Sacha]: Yeah, yeah.

00:55:31.793 --> 00:55:32.595
Huh.

00:55:32.615 --> 00:55:33.577
Very cool.

00:55:35.882 --> 00:55:36.724
[Ben]: Yeah, so that's one of the ways

00:55:36.744 --> 00:55:37.165
that I use it.

00:55:37.345 --> 00:55:39.489
And because the annotations are just Org Mode

00:55:39.590 --> 00:55:41.915
files, you can add links to other things and it

00:55:41.955 --> 00:55:43.298
becomes just as useful as anything else.

NOTE mytoots archives Mastodon toots

00:55:46.164 --> 00:55:48.488
[Sacha]: And you're saying this can flow

00:55:48.529 --> 00:55:51.595
into Mastodon and from there, once you toot it,

00:55:51.946 --> 00:55:54.571
I think you're using, like, this is mytoots thing

00:55:54.591 --> 00:55:56.093
that you mentioned in your config also for

00:55:56.194 --> 00:55:56.875
archiving it?

00:55:57.716 --> 00:55:58.778
Or searching, yeah, okay.

00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:00.642
Oh, except it's currently not working.

00:56:01.243 --> 00:56:02.164
[Ben]: Yeah, I don't have it loaded right

00:56:02.204 --> 00:56:02.325
now.

00:56:02.525 --> 00:56:07.815
But yeah, so mytoots, it just loads the backup of

00:56:09.097 --> 00:56:12.523
your export archive.

00:56:13.124 --> 00:56:14.747
So it loads the...

00:56:16.600 --> 00:56:17.722
What's the most recent one?

00:56:17.742 --> 00:56:20.889
So yeah, it was your Outbox JSON file, which is

00:56:21.570 --> 00:56:22.492
the most recent one here.

00:56:22.612 --> 00:56:24.276
So I've got an Org Mode reminder to download it

00:56:24.536 --> 00:56:25.258
roughly quarterly.

00:56:26.059 --> 00:56:28.545
My Outbox is about 100 megs right now.

00:56:29.186 --> 00:56:32.613
And compared to, well, I mean, it's compared to

00:56:32.633 --> 00:56:34.597
4.5 gigs for elfeed.

00:56:35.118 --> 00:56:35.719
It's not so big.

00:56:36.641 --> 00:56:37.984
I think...

00:56:37.964 --> 00:56:39.446
Oh yeah, that's not going to redraw properly.

00:56:39.706 --> 00:56:41.529
I was just going to show it like my resident

00:56:41.669 --> 00:56:44.232
Emacs memory size right now is about like five or

00:56:44.273 --> 00:56:44.753
six gigs.

00:56:44.793 --> 00:56:46.215
It's a little bit embarrassing.

00:56:46.235 --> 00:56:48.478
By comparison, 100 megs of JSON and RAM is not so

00:56:48.518 --> 00:56:50.361
bad, but like having an instant search for

00:56:50.421 --> 00:56:53.124
everything that you posted and being able to

00:56:53.205 --> 00:56:54.907
bounce back from your local archive to the

00:56:54.967 --> 00:56:56.869
conversation thread that's live and see anything

00:56:56.890 --> 00:56:57.651
new that comes in.

00:56:58.271 --> 00:57:00.434
Again, it lets me exercise that outboard brain

00:57:01.175 --> 00:57:01.676
kind of idea.

00:57:02.858 --> 00:57:04.680
So yeah, my toot's super useful.

NOTE Mentoring offer

00:57:05.065 --> 00:57:05.726
[Sacha]: I like it a lot.

00:57:06.247 --> 00:57:08.029
And then the last thing that I want to ask

00:57:08.249 --> 00:57:09.771
before, again, kiddo, because I have like two

00:57:09.791 --> 00:57:11.514
minutes, is that you have a mentoring offer

00:57:11.594 --> 00:57:13.716
pinned in your Mastodon, too.

00:57:14.578 --> 00:57:16.620
Have people taken you up on it, especially if

00:57:16.640 --> 00:57:18.222
they've taken you up on Emacs?

00:57:19.084 --> 00:57:21.627
Is that ongoing or forgotten about or whatever?

00:57:22.288 --> 00:57:22.909
[Ben]: Not forgotten about.

00:57:23.009 --> 00:57:24.050
Very much real.

00:57:24.531 --> 00:57:25.372
Still open.

00:57:25.392 --> 00:57:27.995
I haven't refreshed that offer recently, but it's

00:57:28.015 --> 00:57:28.736
still pinned for a reason.

00:57:29.457 --> 00:57:31.941
Yeah, I think maybe a dozen or so folks have

00:57:32.221 --> 00:57:33.823
asked for that.

00:57:34.816 --> 00:57:37.223
9 or 10 success stories, I think.

00:57:37.283 --> 00:57:40.252
Nobody's asked for Emacs tutorialship yet.

00:57:41.515 --> 00:57:42.578
That's fine.

00:57:42.598 --> 00:57:43.621
Again, I love Emacs.

00:57:43.641 --> 00:57:43.982
I use it.

00:57:44.042 --> 00:57:45.105
I don't often recommend it.

00:57:46.429 --> 00:57:48.274
But if anybody was curious about that, I would be

00:57:48.315 --> 00:57:49.197
very open to the idea.

00:57:49.531 --> 00:57:51.757
[Sacha]: All right, so if people want to

00:57:51.857 --> 00:57:55.787
also develop a very interesting elfeed setup,

00:57:55.847 --> 00:57:56.790
they know who to talk to.

00:57:58.374 --> 00:57:59.176
[Ben]: Please, I would love that

00:57:59.196 --> 00:57:59.697
conversation.

00:58:00.198 --> 00:58:01.221
[Sacha]: Thank you so much.

00:58:01.241 --> 00:58:01.983
Yes, go ahead.

NOTE A local instance of public-inbox can let you use Gnus to read mailing lists quickly

00:58:02.003 --> 00:58:03.306
[Ben]: Oh yeah, there's just one last

00:58:03.326 --> 00:58:05.011
thing I want to mention, and I realize we're

00:58:05.051 --> 00:58:05.953
right up against time.

00:58:05.933 --> 00:58:12.122
I use GNU for email, but I use GNU for reading

00:58:12.162 --> 00:58:12.703
mailing lists.

00:58:13.544 --> 00:58:17.249
I just wanted to just strongly recommend to

00:58:17.429 --> 00:58:19.793
anybody who is thinking about it, this is amazing.

00:58:20.354 --> 00:58:21.475
You gotta do this.

00:58:21.555 --> 00:58:23.939
Public inbox lets you keep a complete local

00:58:23.999 --> 00:58:25.361
archive of the entire mailing list.

00:58:25.901 --> 00:58:26.743
Searches are instant.

00:58:27.784 --> 00:58:29.046
Tracking threads is instant.

00:58:30.067 --> 00:58:30.488
Check it out.

00:58:30.869 --> 00:58:31.890
It's fantastic.

00:58:32.174 --> 00:58:33.396
[Sacha]: That's great because like Emacs

00:58:33.436 --> 00:58:35.719
develops like gazillion threads and how do you

00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:37.362
even keep track of all this stuff but if you've

00:58:37.422 --> 00:58:40.747
got news and you and if you've got this set up

00:58:40.787 --> 00:58:42.750
then you're no longer dependent on the good

00:58:42.770 --> 00:58:46.516
graces of Gmail being around as a kind of NNTP to

00:58:46.536 --> 00:58:50.983
mailing list gateway so uh so yeah uh John wants

00:58:51.023 --> 00:58:53.006
to know if you have YouTube like if you have a

00:58:53.066 --> 00:58:56.011
YouTube channel I'm guessing you don't yet but uh

00:58:56.492 --> 00:58:58.755
again I don't really like my face very much

00:58:58.837 --> 00:59:02.603
Ping Ben on Mastodon and ask about this mentoring

00:59:02.643 --> 00:59:04.285
thing and then share your notes so we can all

00:59:04.305 --> 00:59:04.786
learn from it.

00:59:04.946 --> 00:59:06.369
Thank you so much for today.

00:59:06.969 --> 00:59:10.835
I look forward to chatting with you more through

00:59:10.855 --> 00:59:11.156
toots.

00:59:11.516 --> 00:59:15.282
What is the verb, you know, in the 30-verse?

00:59:16.905 --> 00:59:17.265
All right.

00:59:17.626 --> 00:59:18.367
Thank you so much.

00:59:18.828 --> 00:59:19.168
All right.

00:59:19.208 --> 00:59:19.529
Bye.

00:59:23.635 --> 00:59:24.476
Okay, folks.

00:59:24.496 --> 00:59:25.298
I'll end the stream too.

00:59:25.758 --> 00:59:26.099
Bye.

00:59:26.119 --> 00:59:26.920
Thanks for hanging out.